OT: Jon Benet Ramsey suspect arrested

[missitaly]

I can't wait to find out how this guy knew her/them, got into the house, etc. The fact that he was arrested in Thailand is very telling.


CNN -- A suspect has been arrested "for the December 26, 1996, murder of JonBenet Ramsey," the district attorney in Boulder, Colorado, said Wednesday.

A law enforcement source identified the suspect as 41-year-old John Mark Carr, a one-time school teacher. He was arrested in Bangkok, Thailand, following "several months of a focused and complex investigation," District Attorney Mary Lacy said.

Two law enforcement sources told CNN that Carr was under investigation for an unrelated sex crime.

Carr was arrested Wednesday morning and has confessed to certain elements of the crime that are unknown to the general public, CNN affiliate KUSA reported.

An investigator with the District Attorney's office is bringing Carr to Colorado from Thailand.

JonBenet's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, were both consulted during the investigation, Lacy said, and the Ramsey family had been notified of the arrest. Patsy Ramsey died in June of ovarian cancer at age 49.

"It is our hope that this arrest will bring some closure to the Ramsey family after a 10-year ordeal," said the family's attorney, Hal Haddon.

JonBenet's father, John Ramsey, told 9NEWS in Denver that he has been notified of the arrest. Asked if he knew Carr, Ramsey replied, "To the best of my knowledge, no," the station's Web site reported.

Prosecutors in Boulder are expected to hold a news conference Thursday.

JonBenet's beaten and strangled body was found in the basement of the family home in Boulder, Colorado, the day after Christmas in 1996. She was 6.

A grand jury investigation into the death of the child beauty pageant winner ended without charges in 1999.

The investigation focused a spotlight on the child's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey. Patsy Ramsey died in June of ovarian cancer. She was 49.

The Ramseys said an intruder committed the crime, but they remained the subject of suspicion and speculation.

In 2003 a federal judge dismissed a lawsuit against the Ramseys, blaming the police and the FBI for bungling the investigation. The Boulder County District Attorney's Office concurred with the judge's opinion the following month, saying there was little evidence against the couple

The Ramseys left Colorado and had a house in Charlevoix, Michigan, where John Ramsey unsuccessfully ran for office in 2004.

[pandagirl]

I was stunned to hear this a few minutes ago.

I'll definitely be watching Nancy Grace tonight!

[Mammy]

I saw a program on CourtTV just a week ago and assumed the case had gone cold. Hopefully, this is the right guy and he will be put away in prison where he will be "loved to death" by fellow inmates.

[Hershey]

Boy, I will be totally shocked if it turns out this guy did it.
There were just too many things pointing to a family member, mosty Patsy. How hard the house was to navigate, the time the perp had to be in the house to write a ransom note with paper/felt tip pen from the house, and to even write a draft, using unique expressions Patsy used in her own personal writings, the amount of the ransom note,and lots more. I've read a lot about this case after Patsy died and it just strains credibility of the entire scene to think an outsider did it.

Edited to add that the Nancy Grace show people are acting like this guy is definitely the perp. I'm not so sure --- yet.

[Rowan]

This is from MSNBC.com.......


BOULDER, Colo. - A man suspected in the slaying of 6-year-old beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey was arrested Wednesday in Thailand in a surprise breakthrough in one of the nation’s most lurid murder cases — a decade-old crime some feared would never be solved.

District Attorney Mary Lacy said the arrest followed several months of work. She would not disclose any details about the suspect, but the Ramsey family’s attorney in Atlanta said the man was a schoolteacher who once lived in nearby Conyers, Ga.

Federal officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, identified the suspect as John Mark Karr, a 42-year-old American, and said he was already being held in Bangkok on unrelated sex charges. CBS reported he will be brought back to the United States this weekend.

The Ramsey family attorney, Lin Wood, refused to say if the Ramseys knew the suspect and said he knew nothing else about the man. JonBenet was born in Atlanta in 1990, and the Ramseys lived in the Atlanta suburb of Dunwoody for several years before moving to Colorado in 1991. The couple moved back to Atlanta after their daughter’s slaying.

Wood said the arrest was vindication for JonBenet’s parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, who had come under suspicion in the slaying. The attorney said the Ramseys learned about the suspect a least a month before Patsy Ramsey’s death June 24 after a long battle with ovarian cancer.

“It’s been a very long 10 years, and I’m just sorry Patsy isn’t here for me to hug her neck,” Wood said.

Murder and ransom note
JonBenet was found beaten and strangled in the basement of the family’s home in Boulder on Dec. 26, 1996. Patsy Ramsey reported finding a ransom note demanding $118,000 for her daughter.

The image of blonde-haired JonBenet in a cowgirl costume and other beauty pageant outfits has haunted TV talk shows ever since, helping feed myriad theories about her killer.

Investigators said at one point that JonBenet’s parents were under an “umbrella of suspicion” in the slaying. But the Ramseys insisted an intruder killed their daughter, and no one was ever charged.

In the months after the slaying, Patsy Ramsey went before the cameras, vigorously defending herself and her husband, chastising the media and blasting local law enforcement as incompetent.

Over the years, some experts suggested that investigators had botched the case so thoroughly that it might never be solved.

In a statement Wednesday, John Ramsey said: “Patsy was aware that authorities were close to making an arrest in the case and had she lived to see this day, would no doubt have been as pleased as I am with today’s development almost 10 years after our daughter’s murder.”

Lib Waters of Marietta, Ga., visited the gravesites of Patsy and JonBenet Ramsey in the Atlanta suburb immediately after hearing news reports about the arrest.

Waters, who described herself as a longtime friend of the Ramsey family, taped a piece of notebook paper to JonBenet Ramsey’s headstone that read: “Dearest Patsy, Justice has come for you and Jon. Rest in peace.”

Work of an intruder, judge concluded
In 2003, a federal judge in Atlanta concluded that the evidence she reviewed suggested an intruder killed JonBenet. That opinion came with the judge’s decision to dismiss a libel and slander lawsuit against the Ramseys by a freelance journalist, whom the Ramseys had named as a suspect in their daughter’s murder. The Boulder district attorney at the time said she agreed with the judge’s declaration.

Wood said Wednesday’s arrest further vindicated his clients.

“I am sure there were still doubts in the minds of individuals whose thinking had been poisoned against this family because of the years of false accusations,” Wood said.

“Today is additional vindication of the family, but I think that knowledgeable individuals familiar with the evidence in the case have known for many years that this family was falsely accused, that they were innocent and that what they lived through in the last 10 years was an American tragedy.”

Wood said he and the Ramseys “have been totally amazed and impressed with the professionalism of law enforcement” under Lacy’s direction. Lacy became district attorney in 2001.

KUSA-TV of Denver, citing no sources, reported that the suspect has confessed to certain elements of the crime.

Bob Grant, a former Adams County district attorney who worked on the case, said there was never enough evidence to convince him that any potential suspect could be successfully prosecuted.

“I wasn’t convinced it was an inside job, nor was I convinced it was an outside job,” he said. “All the outside suspects were cleared after exhaustive investigation, and there were a whole lot of outside suspects.”

[Hershey]

Greta Van Susteran's show was much better on this than Nancy Grace's IMO.
I have a lot of respect for Mark Fuhrman's detective abilities and I thought as usual that his comments were very wise. He is saying to reserve judgment to see what exactly the prosecutors think they have on this suspect. People are rushing to judgment and thinking this suspect is guilty but all we've really heard is that he's been arrested. The suspect's brother spoke to Greta by telephone and of course denied the brother's involvement. As Mark F. pointed out, according to police detective Steve Thomas who wrote a book about the Ramsey case and thought Patsy was guilty (and cited many lies that Patsy told to police), the D.A. constantly shared investigative information with the Ramsey defense lawyers (a big no-no). So, many people probably know information that was not released to the public. We don't know what this suspect knows or how he may have acquired information that was not released to the public. I'm taking a "wait and see" approach, as Fuhrman advocates. Medical examiner Michael Baden didn't sound real convinced that this suspect is necessarily guilty either.

[Linda Lou]

It would be very ironic if this person turns out to be guilty, after years of suspicion directed at the Ramseys (some of it justifiable) and so soon after Patsy's death.

[Hershey]

The Ramseys helped cast suspicion on themselves in numerous ways, such as hiring a PR person and lawyers ASAP and going on CNN right after JonBenet's death while not being fully cooperative with police, wanting to travel to their home in Michigan (or was it the Atlanta home) on the day of JonBenet's death (in other words, getting right out of town as soon as possible, and leaving JonBenet's body in Boulder), insisting on being interviewed by police together and not separately (once they finally consented to be interviewed), I could go on and on. Had they acted like Mark Klaas did when his daughter Polly was killed or as John Walsh did, when his son Adam was killed, they may not have appeared so suspicious all these years. Not to mention Patsy not being believable in her TV appearances, and many other things.
So, maybe ironic, maybe not. The Ramseys own conduct helped keep them under the umbrella of suspicion. And I'm not jumping on the "this is the guy" bandwagon quite yet. Maybe this suspect is in fact guilty. Time will tell.

[missitaly]

Very interesting that the guy confessed to killing her stating it was a kidnapping gone awry. The authorities said they've been working on this case for months, so Patsy must have known about it. And the guy allegedly knows things about the case that were never made public. Hmmm. Have you all seen his picture? He's pretty scary.

[Rowan]

Here's another article from MSNBC.com, the sick pervert says he was "in love" with 6 yr old JonBenet.......



BANGKOK, Thailand - A former American school teacher said publicly Thursday he was with JonBenet Ramsey when she was killed and called the 6-year-old’s death “an accident,” a stunning admission that should help answer 10 years of questions in the unsolved murder case.

John Mark Karr, 41, will be taken within the week to Colorado, where he will face charges of first degree murder, kidnapping and child sexual assault, Ann Hurst of the Department of Homeland Security told a news conference in Bangkok.

“I was with JonBenet when she died,” Karr told reporters afterward, visibly nervous and stuttering as he spoke. “Her death was an accident.”

Asked if he was innocent of the crime, Karr said: “No.”

He told the Associated Press he was "very sorry for what happened to JonBenet" and that he loves her "very much."

Karr confessed to the killing after his arrest Wednesday at his downtown Bangkok guesthouse by Thai and American authorities, said Lt. Gen. Suwat Tumrongsiskul, head of Thailand’s immigration police.

Suspect says kidnapping went awry
He said Karr insisted his crime was not first-degree murder but that JonBenet died during a kidnapping attempt that went awry.

“He said it was second-degree murder. He said it was unintentional,” Suwat said. He said Karr told Thai interrogators that he picked JonBenet up at her school and brought her to the family’s basement.

“He said he loved this child, that he was in love her. He said she was very pretty, a pageant queen. She was the school star, she was very cute and sweet,” Suwat said.

Karr declined to say what his connection was to the Ramsey family. Dressed in a turquoise polo shirt and khaki trousers, he appeared ashen with an expressionless look on his face.

An attorney for the Ramsey family said Wednesday that Karr once lived near the family in Conyers, Ga.

JonBenet was found beaten and strangled in the basement of the family’s home in Boulder, Colo., on Dec. 26, 1996.

Wednesday’s arrest was a surprise development in one of America’s most lurid murder cases, which had left a cloud of suspicion over her family after years went by with no arrests. Some feared the case would never be solved.

Striking video images of the blonde-haired girl in child beauty pageants helped propel the case into one of the highest-profile mysteries in the United States.

Colorado professor tipped off police
A law enforcement source, speaking on condition of anonymity, told the AP that Karr had been communicating periodically with somebody in Boulder who had been following the case and cooperating with law enforcement officials.

A University of Colorado spokesman, Barrie Hartman, said journalism professor Michael Tracey communicated with Karr over several months and contacted police. The university spokesman said he didn’t know what prompted Tracey to become suspicious of Karr.

Tracey produced a documentary in 2004 called “Who Killed JonBenet?” A woman who answered the phone at a number under his name said he didn’t live there anymore; his office phone mailbox was full.

DNA was found beneath JonBenet’s fingernails and inside her underwear, but Lin Wood, the family’s longtime attorney, said two years ago that detectives were unable to match it to anyone in an FBI database. It was not known whether investigators had any DNA evidence against Karr.

The Ramseys learned that police were investigating Karr at least a month before the June death of JonBenet’s mother, Patsy Ramsey, of ovarian cancer, the family said.

In a statement Wednesday, father John Ramsey said that if his wife had lived to see Karr’s arrest, she “would no doubt have been as pleased as I am with today’s development almost 10 years after our daughter’s murder.”

Suwat quoted Karr as saying he tried to kidnap JonBenet for a $118,000 ransom but that his plan went awry and he strangled her. Patsy Ramsey reported finding a ransom note in the house demanding $118,000 for her daughter.

Attorney: Parents vindicated
Investigators said at one point that JonBenet’s parents were under an “umbrella of suspicion” in the slaying, and some news accounts cast suspicion on JonBenet’s older brother, Burke. But the Ramseys insisted an intruder killed their daughter, and no one was ever charged.

Over the years, some experts suggested that investigators had botched the case so thoroughly that it might never be solved. The Ramseys moved back to Atlanta after their daughter’s slaying.

Ramsey family attorney Lin Wood said the arrest vindicated JonBenet’s parents, John and Patsy Ramsey. Patsy Ramsey died of ovarian cancer on June 24.

“It’s been a very long 10 years, and I’m just sorry Patsy isn’t here for me to hug her neck,” said Wood.

“John and Patsy lived their lives knowing they were innocent, trying to raise a son despite the furor around them,” Wood told MSNBC.

‘He did not resist’
Suwat said U.S. authorities informed Thai police on Aug. 11 that an arrest warrant had been issued for Karr on charges of premeditated murder. The warrant was sent to Thai police on Wednesday.

“Through investigation we were able to determine where his residence was and the Thais arrested him,” Hurst said. “He did not resist. He did express surprise.”

Hurst said Karr has been “very cooperative” with authorities and that he’s shown a “variety of emotions.”

Suwat said Karr arrived in Bangkok on June 6 from Malaysia to look for a teaching job. It was not clear whether he had gotten a job, the police officer said.

Karr’s visa has been revoked as an “undesirable person” given the accusations against him, and U.S. authorities were expected to take him to the United States in the next few days, Suwat said.

Hurst, with the department’s U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement in Bangkok, said that Karr had left the United States several years ago and had not returned.

The immigration and customs office had assisted the Boulder County District Attorney’s Office and the Royal Thai Police in the investigation.

The suspect, who has been in Thailand five times over the past two years, was being detained by immigration police pending arrival of U.S. officials, Suwat said.

Travel questions, possible link to child porn
When asked how he could travel for so many years in Asia, and whether he was independently wealthy, Hurst responded, “We’re asking the same questions.”

Police said Karr had been living in a dormitory-style guesthouse called The Blooms in a neighborhood of massage parlors and travel agents that cater to expatriate residents and sex tourists. The nine-story hotel offers rooms for as short as three-hour rentals.

The district attorney in Boulder, Mary Lacy, said the arrest followed several months of work.

She said Karr, who had traveled extensively across the world, may also be connected to a prior case in Santa Rosa County, Calif. She did not provide further details.

Sonoma County Chief Deputy District Attorney Joan Risse confirmed the child pornography charges and arrest warrant against a John Mark Karr, though she cautioned that she didn’t know if he was the same person held Bangkok. State records show Karr lost his teaching credential in 2002.

[Hershey]

"He said Karr told Thai interrogators that he picked JonBenet up at her school and brought her to the family’s basement." ---from Rowan's post above.

This part of the "confession" makes no sense. There wasn't any school on Christmas when she was killed and she'd been with her family all day til about 10:00 pm. I wonder if this is some nutcase confessing to the killing, who knew "details" about the crime because the DA's office had leaked so much info. As I said above, time will tell whether this man really killed her or not.
He may be someone just obsessed with the case who is either seeking publicity or is a nutcase who truly believes he killed her, or maybe he really is the killer. At this point until I learn more, all three scenarios are possibilities.

[beekeeper]

On my morning talk radio show (here in colorado) this morning, they are saying that he is being questioned in the case, NOT charged with anything. He is being charged for the kiddie porn incidents. The big news networks are jumping the gun.

Apparently, his ex-wife says she was with him (in Alabama) the night he supposedly killed JonBenet. Also, his brother says he thinks he has photos with him from that evening (again, in Alabama).

There is no record of him (taxes, payroll, phone listings) being in Colorado, ever.

This should be interesting!

[pandagirl]

I think some of the leaks aren't accurate. I hadn't heard that one about picking up JonBenet at school.

I'll reserve judgment, as well. I'm interested in hearing what the Boulder prosecutors say at their 12 (eastern time) press conference.

The guy, however, is beyond creepy.

I agree with Hershey that the Ramseys brought a lot of suspicion on themselves by their weird -- there is just no other word for it -- behavior.

[beekeeper]

I won't even begin to act like I know who did it ... but there are so many questions. This is sooo interesting ... I hope something real comes out of it, and it's not just a big dream smasher!

It's suspected that he is only admitting to it to get out of the Thai prison system, which is apparently horrendous.

[J.R.]

(Hershey)

Boy, I will be totally shocked if it turns out this guy did it.

There were just too many things pointing to a family member, mosty Patsy. How hard the house was to navigate, the time the perp had to be in the house to write a ransom note with paper/felt tip pen from the house, and to even write a draft, using unique expressions Patsy used in her own personal writings, the amount of the ransom note,and lots more. I've read a lot about this case after Patsy died and it just strains credibility of the entire scene to think an outsider did it.

(J.R.)

Well, I did tell you.

All those things were speculation and not real evidence. I never thought she or her husband did it.

(Hershey)

He is saying to reserve judgment to see what exactly the prosecutors think they have on this suspect. People are rushing to judgment and thinking this suspect is guilty but all we've really heard is that he's been arrested.

(J.R.)

It seems you and others who thought they were guilty don't want to rush judgment now, but when the Ramsey's were in the bulleye were more than happy to do it.

(Hershey)

The Ramseys helped cast suspicion on themselves in numerous ways, such as hiring a PR person and lawyers ASAP and going on CNN right after JonBenet's death while not being fully cooperative with police, wanting to travel to their home in Michigan (or was it the Atlanta home) on the day of JonBenet's death (in other words, getting right out of town as soon as possible, and leaving JonBenet's body in Boulder), insisting on being interviewed by police together and not separately (once they finally consented to be interviewed), I could go on and on. Had they acted like Mark Klaas did when his daughter Polly was killed or as John Walsh did, when his son Adam was killed, they may not have appeared so suspicious all these years. Not to mention Patsy not being believable in her TV appearances, and many other things.

(J.R.)

It sounds like all you read were the tabloids. The Ramseys explained all these events or non events as some of those things are exaggerated or never happened the way you said it.

Believable?!? Patsy and John acted just like two people who had had their child murdered and were innocent.

OJ is the one who always acted guilty.

[pandagirl]

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(J.R.)


Believable?!? Patsy and John acted just like two people who had had their child murdered and were innocent.

OJ is the one who always acted guilty.
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I couldn't disagree with you more. Refusing to be interviewed by the police for months when their daughter was brutally murdred? That will never make any kind of sense to me.

[Linda Lou]

JR, I've been holding my breath, waiting to see an "I told you so" post from you since this story broke. ;)

IT DID seem credible to believe that the family was involved, and all the facts aren't in yet. Not everyone gets their information from the National Enquirer, I'd like to add, JR.

[Hershey]

J.R., I assure you that I did not rush to judgment about the Ramsey's guilt, nor did I ever read the tabloids. I did, however, read many books on this subject (including lead police detective Steve Thomas' who was privvy to all the investigative material the police had and was convinced from the evidence that Patsy did it) and I followed the case closely for all these years.

We'll see how this all plays out. This guy could just be a nutcase, or he could be the murderer. Please do not put words in my mouth or assume things about me. I think you are the one with a real blind spot and closed mind about this case.

Edited to add: Did you, J.R. read Thomas' book? I know you read the Ramseys book defending themselves, but what about Thomas? I'm thinking you did not.

[J.R.]

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pandagirl:
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(J.R.)


Believable?!? Patsy and John acted just like two people who had had their child murdered and were innocent.

OJ is the one who always acted guilty.
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I couldn't disagree with you more. Refusing to be interviewed by the police for months when their daughter was brutally murdred? That will never make any kind of sense to me.
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Another uninformed poster. That simply didn't happen.

You are reading tabloids and media reports.

(Linda)

IT DID seem credible to believe that the family was involved, and all the facts aren't in yet. Not everyone gets their information from the National Enquirer, I'd like to add, JR.

(J.R.)

Still defending your poor judgment I see.

And not it didn't seem credible. And there were no facts against the Ramsey's and that didn't seem to bother you.

Even the mainstream media was used by the Boulder police to pass out lies about the Ramsey's.

It helped to look a little deeper and get the Ramsey's side of things and not base one's opinion on wild speculation and conspiracy theories.

[Hershey]

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J.R.:

It helped to look a little deeper and get the Ramsey's side of things and not base one's opinion on wild speculation and conspiracy theories.
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I resent your accusations that anyone who disagrees with you on this subejct has opinions based on wild speculation and conspiracy theories (yes, I've read your posts on Chit Chat to Mel about the Ramsey case).

[Linda Lou]

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J.R.)

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Another uninformed poster. That simply didn't happen.

You are reading tabloids and media reports.

(Linda)

IT DID seem credible to believe that the family was involved, and all the facts aren't in yet. Not everyone gets their information from the National Enquirer, I'd like to add, JR.

(J.R.)

Still defending your poor judgment I see.

And not it didn't seem credible. And there were no facts against the Ramsey's and that didn't seem to bother you.

Even the mainstream media was used by the Boulder police to pass out lies about the Ramsey's.

It helped to look a little deeper and get the Ramsey's side of things and not base one's opinion on wild speculation and conspiracy theories.
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JR, why do you always do this?? Always the broad sweeping generalizations, and contentious statements from you, if people's opinions don't agree with yours.
If you feel that I have poor judgment, bully for you, but I am ENTITLED to my opinions, as well as you are.

Only you think you are right ALL of the time. Sigh.

[pandagirl]

I am not an uninformed poster, J.R. The Ramseys refused to be formally interviewed by the police for months.

This is not wild specualtion. This is fact.

[Curvigirl]

Well, whatever.

The media has once again descended on my little town. Karr lived here (and taught as a substitute teacher in our school district) about five years ago. His wife and kids still live here.

This is also the town where Polly Klaas was kidnapped in 1993. The local news is saying Karr was obsessed with both cases. We know he didn't kill Polly Klaas.

This could just be a guy who has devoted himself to researching JonBenet's murder and picked up "confidential" information along the way.

If you saw him on the news, with his Bowersox beltline and faint traces of eye shadow and mascara, it's clear he's at least one brick shy of a full load.

The DNA evidence will be very interesting.

[Hershey]

By the way, J.R. if you ever do bother to read Thomas' book, you'll see that DA Alex Hunter was consistently leaking into to a reporter from the Globe tabloid. And the Globe tabloid got a hold of JonBenet's autopsy photos (the real ones!) and printed them. So not everything in the tabloids was false. Alex Hunter's behavior about the case was outrageous, and he catered and deferred to the defense attorneys constantly.

Curvigirl, yes, it will be interesting what the DNA tests show.

I really just can't get past the fact that the ransom note was so bogus, and had so many similarities to Patsy's style of writing, and appeared to have been written by a woman.

[pandagirl]

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Curvigirl:

This could just be a guy who has devoted himself to researching JonBenet's murder and picked up "confidential" information along the way.

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Well, I would certainly hope that the Boulder police learned enough in the past few years not to do something that foolish. Especially because of the big media splash that they very deliberately started.

This guy could have just been quietly extradited, but they chose to make it big news.

[Hershey]

What I'm getting from the press conference with the D.A. is that their investigation is far from complete. She said that usually when an arrest is made, it's after an investigation is pretty much complete, but in "exigent circumstances", an arrest is made before an investigation is complete, and there is "much work to do."

I think this guy is a long way from being guilty...at least at this point in time. Sounds to me like the DA's office brought him back from overseas TO DO some further investigating.

[Curvigirl]

I agree. There's a lot of work still to be done here.

As an aside, why do they bother to allow questions from reporters when they're not allowed to answer any of them? Frustrating!

[pandagirl]

Rikki Klieman and Beth Karras just said on Court TV that their take on the press conference is that the DA is sure they've got the guy.

BTW, John Douglass said on CNN this morning that Steve Thomas simply ignored evidence in his book that didn't lead to the Ramseys. Don't know if that's true, but that was his comment.

[Hershey]

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pandagirl:
BTW, John Douglass said on CNN this morning that Steve Thomas simply ignored evidence in his book that didn't lead to the Ramseys. Don't know if that's true, but that was his comment.
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Maybe so, Pandagirl. But it seemed to me he did take into account and explain the things Lou Smit thought exonerated the Ramseys (e.g. the stun gun, the suitcase under the window, and some other things).

[Hershey]

"A Thailand police officer also told the AP that Karr had admitted to drugging and having sex with the beauty queen before accidentally killing her."

Source:SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMabcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=2325353&page=1


Now this is interesting. The autopsy report showed no drugs in JonBenet's system and no semen.

[Garnet333]

This John Mark Karr is a nut job. I think its going to come out he had nothing to do with Jon Benet's murder.

[Hershey]

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Garnet333:
This John Mark Karr is a nut job. I think its going to come out he had nothing to do with Jon Benet's murder.
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I agree. I don't think what he is confessing to fits the known facts.
JB had pineapple that night that she didn't eat at the White's Xmas party; it's well agreed by law enforcement that she ate it afterwards. Yet the Ramseys insist that she was asleep after they got home from the White's and John carried her up the stairs and put her to bed. According to Steve Thomas' book, there was a bowl with pineapple residue on the kitchen table, with Patsy's fingerprints on it, yet Patsy consistently denied giving JB pineapple that night.

According to Thomas, there were Pampers (which JonBenet wore because she not only wet the bed but her pants also, and also had occasional #2 accidents - at her age - could be a sign of sexual molestation) hanging out of the cupboard outside JB's bedroom when the police were called in (there are photographs of that). Thomas' theory is that JB was up at home after the Christmas party at the White's and Patsy gave her some pineapple. At some point JB went to bed and Patsy was packing for the trip to Charlevoix the next day; it was late, the Ramseys didn't get back from the White's until 10:00. Patsy was probably under pressure to get the family packed, she was turning 40 in just a few days (the day of JB's funeral as it turns out) and Thomas theorizes that JB wet the bed (hence the hastily grabbed Pampers), Patsy accidentally hit JB's head against the bathtub, or the toilet or something, making that bash in her head, and then covered the whole thing up. Remember, Patsy wore the same clothes the next day as she wore to Fleet White's (implying she never went to sleep that night). Also, she told police they were supposed to leave for Charlevoix MI at I forgot exactly what time (the pilot verified this) but in that case, the time she gave police when she arose and found the ransom note didn't make sense - it was too late a time for them to have gotten to the airport for their scheduled flight time to Charlevoix. Uh, Uh. I could go on and on but I agree with Garnet. I think this "suspect" will turn out to be a nutcase, and I still think the parents are involved and it was an accident that was covered up.

[missitaly]

I'm still trying to get over how in the world he allegedly got into the house without a sound. And if he didn't do it why in the world confess? Although the police said he knew things about the case that were never made public.

[beekeeper]

Hershey, sounds like you have done some serious reading on this case. On talk radio this morning, they mentioned a guy who was at one point a suspect, but he commited suicide. What's the story of this guy?

I have to admit that as close as I am to Boulder, I never followed the case very closely ... it was all so grotesque!

[missitaly]

John Walsh has always said that after Adam disappeared he and his wife were endlessly questioned by authorities (and lie detector tests to boot). He could never figure out why the Ramsey's didn't go through the same investigation that he and his wife did. John Walsh has also said he was more than willing to be checked out as a potential suspect. We all know the outcome of the Walsh case, but it begs the question why the Ramsey's got off so easy? Why didn't they get put through what the Walsh's were put through? Yes, the Ramsey's are loaded. However, the Walsh's were doing okay as John said at that time he had a very successful career.

I agree Garnet. The suspect is so creepy. What's up with the mascara and eye shadow(?). And why wasn't his wife (who is defending him) with him in Thailand?

[beekeeper]

They had attorneys hired the next day. Yes, it's always common for the parents to be in that web of "could be suspects", so the Ramsey's hiring representation isn't completely out of the quesiont. However, it's very simple ... if you are not guilty, you do anything and everything to help authorities do their job.

The Ramsey's refused to participate with the FBI or local lie detector tests. They shopped around ... IMO ... for one they could pay to pass them.

OJ Simpson is looking for the killers on golf courses too don't ya know!

[Garnet333]

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beekeeper:
Hershey, sounds like you have done some serious reading on this case. On talk radio this morning, they mentioned a guy who was at one point a suspect, but he commited suicide. What's the story of this guy?

I have to admit that as close as I am to Boulder, I never followed the case very closely ... it was all so grotesque!
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Bee, I was just watching Court TV and they talked about this guy. Investigators claim he had a pair of boots that matched the boot prints they found near JBR's body. Also, they found he owned a stun gun, which we all know a stun gun was used on JBR. They did however do a DNA test and it didnt match the suicide victim.

[pandagirl]

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Garnet333:
This John Mark Karr is a nut job. I think its going to come out he had nothing to do with Jon Benet's murder.
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This is a very big conclusion that I'm not williing to jump to.

The Boulder police and DA would be beyond idiots to make a big splashy arrest of a nut job who clearly didn't do it after nearly 10 years. I don't have much respect for them, but I don't think this is possible.

Let this play out.

[Garnet333]

Updated: 06:41 PM EDT

Confession in JonBenet Case Questioned
By CATHERINE TSAI and JON SARCHE, AP

BOULDER, Colo. (Aug. 17) - For a moment, it seemed the decade-old mystery surrounding the slaying of a child beauty queen had been solved. But authorities Thursday cautioned against rushing to judge the schoolteacher who made a stunning confession that he killed JonBenet Ramsey.

For now, the only public evidence against John Mark Karr are his own words. And questions have already been raised about the details of his story, including whether he drugged the girl, sexually assaulted her or was even in Colorado at the time of the slaying.

Those questions led some to wonder whether Karr was the answer to the long-unsolved slaying or a disturbed wannabe trying to insert himself into a high-profile case.

"We should all heed the poignant advice of John Ramsey," Boulder County District Attorney Mary Lacy, quoting the little girl's father. "Do not jump to conclusions, do not rush to judgment, do not speculate. Let the justice system take its course."

Paraded before a raucous crush of reporters in Bangkok, Thailand, the sullen Karr told how he loved JonBenet, was with her when she died but that her death was an accident. And while vague on the details - "it would take several hours" - he answered flatly when asked if he was innocent: "No."

"The bottom line is that they now have a confession and until and unless they can corroborate that confession with either physical evidence or strong circumstantial evidence, that's all they have," said Scott Robinson, a Denver attorney who has followed the case from the beginning.

Added former Denver prosecutor Craig Silverman: "I have to believe they have more than this kooky confession."

Karr told investigators he drugged and sexually assaulted the little girl before accidentally killing her in her Boulder home, according to a senior Thai police officer who was briefed about the interview with U.S. authorities.

Yet JonBenet's autopsy report found no evidence of drugs, saying her death was caused by strangulation after a beating that included a fractured skull. And while it describes vaginal injuries, it makes no conclusions about whether she was raped.

Karr's ex-wife told TV reporters she cannot defend him, then insisted he was with her in Alabama during Christmas 1996, when JonBenet's battered body was found in the basement of her home. And authorities have not said whether Karr could have written the detailed ransom note found in the Ramsey home, with its demand for $118,000 (the bonus that had recently been awarded to the girl's father, John Ramsey).

Even the Colorado professor who swapped four years' worth of e-mails with Karr and brought him to the attention of prosecutors in May refused to characterize the suspect either as killer or kook.

"I don't know that he's guilty," said Michael Tracey, who teaches journalism at the University of Colorado. "Obviously, I went to the district attorney for a reason, but let him have his day in court and let JonBenet have her day in court and let's see how it plays out."

Karr himself added to the mystery, telling The Associated Press in Bangkok that JonBenet's death was "not what it seems to be."

Asked what happened when JonBenet died, he said: "It would take several hours to describe that. It's a very involved series of events that would involve a lot of time. It's very painful for me to talk about it."

Any previous relationship between Karr and the Ramseys remained a mystery Thursday, though both have ties to suburban Atlanta. District Attorney Lacy refused to discuss the case during a brief news conference and suggested Karr's arrest may have been forced by concern over public safety and fears the suspect might flee.

"There are circumstances that exist in any case that mandate an arrest before an investigation is complete," Lacy said.

Karr, 41, was arrested at a Bangkok apartment Wednesday, a day after he began teaching second grade at an international school, Lacy said.

Hours later, Thai authorities sat him before a crowded room of news crews. Karr stunned reporters by admitting: "I was with JonBenet when she died. Her death was an accident."

"I am so very sorry for what happened to JonBenet," Karr told the AP.

Legal experts said DNA evidence will likely be key: DNA was found beneath JonBenet's fingernails and inside her underwear and authorities have never said whether it matches anyone in an FBI database. U.S. and Thai officials did not directly answer a question at a news conference about whether there was DNA evidence connecting Karr to the crime.

Karr was given a mouth-swab DNA test in Bangkok, according to a law enforcement official who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the ongoing investigation. The results of that test were not immediately known. Karr will be given another DNA test when he returns to the United States in the next several days, the official said.

Karr will be taken within the week to Colorado, where he will face charges of first-degree murder, kidnapping and child sexual assault, Ann Hurst of the Department of Homeland Security told reporters in Bangkok.

Lin Wood, the Ramsey family's longtime attorney in Atlanta, said Karr went to great lengths to conceal his identity in e-mails to the university professor, going so far as to use a computer server in Canada.

Asked if authorities could tell whether Karr had firsthand knowledge of the murder or had just picked up information from news accounts, Wood said: "There is information about the murder that has never been publicly disclosed." He did not elaborate.

Karr's ex-wife, Lara Karr, was quoted by San Francisco television station KGO saying she was with her former husband in Alabama at the time of JonBenet's killing and she does not believe he was involved in the homicide.

Denver attorney Larry Pozner, past president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, said there were "serious questions" about the case.

"I hope we have found the murderer of JonBenet, but I have not heard the evidence that compels that conclusion," he said.

Karr's description of the case as an accident also rang false to experts.

"It's hard to imagine a more intentional, deliberate murder than hitting a little girl in the head so hard that she had almost a foot-long fracture in her skull and then deliberately fashioning a garrotte to twist until it buries in her neck and slowly stops her breathing," said Silverman, the former Denver prosecutor. "This has always been a case of deliberate murder."

Associated Press writers Lara Jakes Jordan in Washington and Chase Squires in Boulder, Colo., contributed to this report.


2006-08-17 17:10 EDT

[Curvigirl]

Jennifer--He and his wife are divorced. She and their kids still live here in town. He left after he was busted for child pornography, in 2002 or 2003. I feel so bad for the kids, having to show their faces when school starts next week.

[Hershey]

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Garnet333:
Also, they found he owned a stun gun, which we all know a stun gun was used on JBR. They did however do a DNA test and it didnt match the suicide victim.
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Garnet, Lou Smit and some others think a stun gun was used on JonBenet; the Boulder police and some other experts do not. I think I've heard Cyril Wecht, who studied the autopsy photos and the report, said he didn't think a stun gun was used. There are opposing opinions on this from the so-called experts. So, I don't think "we all know" a stun gun was used on JBR. There were marks on her body that some have interpreted as a stun gun and others have not.

Beekeeper, Garnet answered your question I think. Yes, Court TV was just showing that person in an hour-long report on JBR.

[Garnet333]

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Hershey:
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Garnet333:
Also, they found he owned a stun gun, which we all know a stun gun was used on JBR. They did however do a DNA test and it didnt match the suicide victim.
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Garnet, Lou Smit and some others think a stun gun was used on JonBenet; the Boulder police and some other experts do not. I think I've heard Cyril Wecht, who studied the autopsy photos and the report, said he didn't think a stun gun was used. There are opposing opinions on this from the so-called experts. So, I don't think "we all know" a stun gun was used on JBR. There were marks on her body that some have interpreted as a stun gun and others have not.

Beekeeper, Garnet answered your question I think. Yes, Court TV was just showing that person in an hour-long report on JBR.
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I watched the hour long report on Court TV and they spoke of a stun gun being used on JBR so I just assumed that it was common knowledge a stun gun was used. That is how it came across to me in this report anyway. Of course they didnt interview Cyril Wecht or any other forensic scientist to disprove this. I obviously have not read enough about this case to make a comment on this, only reporting on what I heard on Court TV tonight.

[Hershey]

Interesting. Pam Paugh, Patsy's sister, is on Larry King Live now. She is subdued and taking the tack "let's wait to see how this plays out." Last night she was elated about the suspect's arrest and was acting like it was all over in terms of closure. She sure seems to have changed her tune in the last 24 hrs.

[BarbM]

that guy is REALLY creepy, he kinda reminds me of Lee Harvey Oswald...

[Hershey]

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BarbM:
that guy is REALLY creepy, he kinda reminds me of Lee Harvey Oswald...
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BarbM, thank you for posting! I've been trying to think since I first saw him who he reminded me of. Bingo you are right! Lee Harvey Oswald!!
And I agree, he looks creepy!

[Hershey]

Cyril Wecht on Larry King Live just said that the suspect "torpedoed his own confession" by saying he drugged & raped JonBenet because the forensic evidence says otherwise. Wecht is sure this isn't the guy.

Wecht just said this is "total nonsense" and the guy should be examined by a psychiatrist. He said it is just more sadness for the Ramsey family. Dr. Henry Lee says he is keeping a more open mind.

[Hershey]

LOL Greta Van Susteran just said she thinks the D.A. in Boulder "has been had." I agree. And the man on now who used to work in the Boulder D.A.'s office and worked on JonBenet's case, Bob Grant, just called the suspect "a wingnut." LOL That's my impression too.

[Zippy]

Back to square one I guess

[pandagirl]

Well, it appears that the Boulder police and DA really are stupid enough to make a big splashy arrest of a nut job.

I can understand wanting to get him away from children since he just started a teaching job. How about arresting him on those California charges and extraditing him for that while QUIETLY investigating him for JonBenet's murder?

They bungled the investigation initially. It looks like they're bungling it again 10 years later.

[Hershey]

Pandagirl, didn't the D.A. at her press conference say they had wanted to arrest the suspect "quietly" and w/out media attention?

Yeah, right, like that's gonna happen. How naive was THAT?

[Linda Lou]

I was flipping through ALL the news stations last night, and was most interested by the show with Dan Abrams. Three out of four of the people interviewed, which included forensics expert Henry Lee, feel that Pee Wee will NOT be found guilty of this crime.

Sure, the real killer is obviously a crazy perverted whacko, but this little twerp looks like he doesn't even know how to tie his own shoes, let alone get away with such a heinous act for 10 years! I will be AMAZED if this case ever goes to trial, let alone render a guilty verdict.

[Garnet333]

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Linda Lou:
Pee Wee will NOT be found guilty of this crime.
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LOL@Linda. Pee Wee Herman........PERFECT!!!!!!!! Oh and BTW, I agree with your comments.

[DKLA]

I don't think this idiot is our man. Just a wacko -- sad, sad, sad.

[pandagirl]

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Hershey:
Pandagirl, didn't the D.A. at her press conference say they had wanted to arrest the suspect "quietly" and w/out media attention?

Yeah, right, like that's gonna happen. How naive was THAT?
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I don't think anything publicly need to have been said at all, Hershey, about the JonBenet murder. He skipped out on pending child porno charges in California which is reason enough for an immediate extradition. There was no need for an announcement that a suspect had been arrested in the murder -- which was WAY too much information and is destined to make them look like idiots.

Apparently, according to Court TV, the Rocky Mountain News is reporting that there was an unidentified stuffed animal found at the scene and there is a photo of this creep in childhood with what appears to be the exact same toy.

[Linda Lou]

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Garnet333:
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Linda Lou:
Pee Wee will NOT be found guilty of this crime.
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LOL@Linda. Pee Wee Herman........PERFECT!!!!!!!! Oh and BTW, I agree with your comments.
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You know who else he reminds me of Garnet?? That character played by Martin Short, with the high-waisted pants, who was real nerdy looking? I can't think of the name of that character right now to save my life! lol!

[Garnet333]

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Linda Lou:
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Garnet333:
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Linda Lou:
Pee Wee will NOT be found guilty of this crime.
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LOL@Linda. Pee Wee Herman........PERFECT!!!!!!!! Oh and BTW, I agree with your comments.
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You know who else he reminds me of Garnet?? That character played by Martin Short, with the high-waisted pants, who was real nerdy looking? I can't think of the name of that character right now to save my life! lol!
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I cant think of him either. The only one I can remember is the wedding planner in Father of the Bride with Steve Martin and Diane Keaton. LOL

[beekeeper]

I know who you're talking about Linda, but can't remember the character name either. Didn't he have a big piece of hair standing straight up too ... ???

[pandagirl]

Ed Grimley, Pat Sajack's number one fan.

[Linda Lou]

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beekeeper:
I know who you're talking about Linda, but can't remember the character name either. Didn't he have a big piece of hair standing straight up too ... ???
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Yeah, he did! Little plaid shirts buttoned all the way up the neck, just like this nutjob.

[Hershey]

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Garnet333:
The only one I can remember is the wedding planner in Father of the Bride with Steve Martin and Diane Keaton. LOL
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I hated that character, Garnet. I couldn't understand a word he said.

[Mammy]

One of the news stations reported the Ramseys often had numerous functions in their home for business, pagents, etc. so maybe this guy wandered into the house at an event and became familiar with the home. Also it was reported the Ramseys didn't secure their home well ( But I thought I saw an alarm sign in one photo). Even though his ex-wife said he was with her, maybe she is just as crazy as he is. I can't believe there would have been so much attention to this suspect if the Boulder DA didn't have some credible information. The stuffed animal in the picture creeps me out.

I think this guy wears his pants like Bob Bowersox.

[Hershey]

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Mammy:
One of the news stations reported the Ramseys often had numerous functions in their home for business, pagents, etc. so maybe this guy wandered into the house at an event and became familiar with the home. www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=1544865
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I've read that too. Of course the first thing to establish was whether the guy was even IN Boulder that Christmas.
Also, even if he'd been to a function in the home, that basement room where the body was found was very hard to find. It's very unlikely that someone just in the house for a brief period of time would know about that room.

[Hershey]

J.R. - take note! I heard Dr. Henry Lee say something very interesting last night. He said that the "unknown" DNA on JB's underpants was most likely from the underpants themselves. Apparently when the garments are folded and packaged in Thailand or wherever overseas they were made, that is done by hand, and skin cells from the packers were on the garments when they were packaged.

[beekeeper]

The police missed this room in their initial search, so I doubt someone unfamiliar with the house would know about this room.

Would have been a nice thing if these top notch news agencies would have checked with family members before announcing they found the killer. This whack job's ex-wife insists she never missed a Christmas with him from 94 to 2000, IN Alabama.

He says he picked her up from school that day? It was Christmas break ... uh, hello?!?

He says he drugged her and had sex with her, yet no drugs were found in her system, nor were any bodily fluids/dna.

COOCOO ... COOCOO

[Linda Lou]

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Mammy:

I think this guy wears his pants like Bob Bowersox.
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LOLOL!!! I was thinking the same thing when I seen him on the news last night, Mammy. Too funny.

[PK...]

Here's an update on the drug/school report - things are never as they seem, apparently...

<<<Lt. Gen. Suwat Tumrongsiskul of the Thai immigration police changed some details Friday of the account he had given of what Karr told investigators. In a telephone interview Thursday with The Associated Press, Suwat quoted Karr as saying he had sexually assaulted the girl and given her drugs. He also told reporters before a news conference Thursday that Karr had claimed to have picked up JonBenet at her school.

On Friday, Suwat confirmed to the AP his account of the sexual assault. But asked Friday if Karr gave the girl drugs, Suwat said the suspect described the encounter with JonBenet Ramsey as "a blur."

"It may have been drugs, or it may have been something else because (Karr said) it was a blur, blur," Suwat said.

Suwat also said Friday that his statement about the girl being picked from school was based on a documentary he had seen and not the interrogation.>>>

I found this interesting, as well... Looks as if the Thai authorities wanted their 15 minutes of fame....

<<<Karr was arrested at a Bangkok apartment Wednesday. Hours later, Thai authorities sat him before a room of journalists, where he admitted: "I was with JonBenet when she died. Her death was an accident.">>>

Now the pendelum is swinging back the other way a bit...

I can see how he might think the death an accident... Let's see... He accidently dropped her on her head, and was so distraught at her injury, he gave her neck a hug with his hands and didn't realize his own strength...

;0))

PK

Ah, but the ex-wife also said she couldn't specifically remember Christmas of '96... Unless Brother can come up with some dated photos, the alibi may not hold up at all...

[beekeeper]

How often are murder suspects allowed to have a press conference? This dork is after publicity, and our celebrity obsessed society is feeding him what he wants.

IMO, he's mentally unstable AND shopping a book. If there is something to it, great ... do the homework and get to the bottom of it. Why welcome the publicity blitz around such a sensitive and emotional subject! I feel for the family, being forced into the lime light again, especially if they aren't involved in the murder somehow!

[Mammy]

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Hershey:
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Also, even if he'd been to a function in the home, that basement room where the body was found was very hard to find. It's very unlikely that someone just in the house for a brief period of time would know about that room.
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This is true but someone with his intent would have used the event to gain access to the house. He could have lived in that basement room for days (composed the 8 page letter, planning the kidnapping, etc.). Probably no one goes to the basement room and he could go unnoticed for days. Just a thought.

[beekeeper]

Not if he was in Alabama celebrating Christmas with is wife and family!

[Curvigirl]

A couple of interesting notes from the newspaper this morning.

He was briefly married to a 12-year-old. His second wife, Lara, was 15 at the time they married. That marriage lasted several years until he was arrested on the pornography charges and he fled.

He had moved his family to Petaluma because of his obsession with the Polly Klaas kidnap/murder, and corresponded with Richard Allen Davis in prison. He had a copy of Polly's death certificate.

I don't think he killed JonBenet Ramsey, but I'm sure glad he's off the streets.

[Hershey]

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Curvigirl:
He was briefly married to a 12-year-old. His second wife, Lara, was 15 at the time they married. That marriage lasted several years until he was arrested on the pornography charges and he fled.
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Curvigirl, didn't you mean to post "His second wife, Lara, was 15 at the time they married. That marriage lasted several years until she got too old..." :)

[Curvigirl]

I'd laugh, but this guy lived in MY town, and I have daughters...

The Polly Klaas tragedy has had a huge impact on my family. A couple of months before it happened, we were at a farmer's market downtown and this really creepy guy frightened my then 5-year-old. He didn't do anything, he was just physically very scary, and she got so freaked we had to leave. Then Polly disappeared. A month later, we were watching the news when the story of the arrest came on. They flashed Richard Allen Davis' picture on the screen and my daughter and I both broke out in tears. It was the same guy.

She's almost 18 now, and she still can't sleep with the window open.

[Hershey]

Curvigirl, what an awful story to come that close to that evil man. He IS scary looking.

Court TV just reported that an investigative source has said that the suspect arrested knows gruesome details about the condition of the body that were not released to the public. The commentators on court TV asked good questions which were: (1) how were those details legally kept out of the autopsy report which was released to the public, and (2) isn't it possible that, ten years after the crime, those gruesome details that he supposedly knows that weren't released have, in fact, leaked out.

Again, it was appalling to me to read how much info the D.A.'s office leaked to the Ramsey defense attorneys. There were lots and lots of people in the D.A.'s office and the police force involved in the case that are no longer in those positions. Some of them are blabbing things about the case on Foxnews to Greta that IMO they should still be keeping to themselves. So, I'm thinking this jerk just found out some info that was supposed to be kept unreleased to the public, esp. since he's been so obsessed with this case. He's probably found out a lot of things most people don't know.

Edited to add: I just remembered that several of the Ramseys friends were in the house, thinking JB had been kidnapped, when John Ramsey found her and brought her up to the living room! They all (or most of them) saw the gruesome condition of the body. I wonder how many people - probably lots - know the condition all these ten years since the crime while people talked about it. There were several people in the Ramsey house that day who probably saw that body.

[missitaly]

I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but I always wondered about JonBenet's brother (can't remember his name now). I thought he was around 12 when she was murdered? I'm not necessarily saying he had anything to do with it, but I've just always wondered about him.

[Rebel_Mom]

I think the police bungled the investigation so badly that with the story in the news again after Patsy's death, they just had to do something, even grab this whacko from Thailand. I had a problem with him as a suspect the first day when he was on the news talking - how could he have picked Jon Benet up from school when it was Christmas night? Whack job, wing nut, pathetic would-be pediphile looking for his 15 minutes of fame...

[Linda Lou]

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missitaly:
I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but I always wondered about JonBenet's brother (can't remember his name now). I thought he was around 12 when she was murdered? I'm not necessarily saying he had anything to do with it, but I've just always wondered about him.
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His name is Burke, Jenn. I think that there was some suspicion cast in his direction, because Patsy claimed that he was asleep when she called police, but his voice could be heard in the background of the 911 call.

[elmo]

They never did a lie detector on Burke, or DNA because the police did not think it was possible for him to have carried out the event. But I've often wondered about this.

[elmo]

This guys handwriting is very similar to the handwriting on the randsom note. And the S.T.B.C. at the end of the randsome note, is also what was signed by him in his yearbook years ago, or what he signed in someone elses's year book, it stands for "strive to be conquered" or something like that. Pretty freaky. Also, I heard last night that a stuffed christmas bear animal that was found in JonBenet's room after the murder, was very similar to one this guy used to have when he was a kid. JonBenet, according to her parents, never owned such a stuffed animal.

[Linda Lou]

As someone who was involved with the original Ramsey investigation said last night, there won't be any conclusive proof against Pee Wee until they do the DNA testing. It's a very confusing case, and I think that I'm reserving judgment until they get the results. This case is just SO bizarre, with so many contradictions.

[kittyinthecity]

Shall Be The Conquerer, S.B.T.C.

Yeah he signed a yearbook with that. Pretty strange!

[Linda Lou]

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kittyinthecity:
Shall Be The Conquerer, S.B.T.C.

Yeah he signed a yearbook with that. Pretty strange!
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I know kitty, that's one of the things that I'm talking about. I think it's probably best not to jump to conclusions either way at this point, like uh, JR has done. If he does turn out to be right, God help us. :)

[Zippy]

We already got a taste of JR "being right" LOLOLOLOL

Touting touting touting !

[kittyinthecity]

Zippy, i just showed my son your "kitty porn" pic. He was laughing so hard at poor Snuggles!

[Zippy]

Kiddy porn...I have a few. Which one did you have?

Its hard not to have kiddy porn with a bare naked cat ya know?! lol

[kittyinthecity]

I have the one where she's laying there with her leg up and you have a "censored" button over her privates! Too funny!

[Zippy]

Yeah ok...that is a good one lolol

I have one of my dog and snuggles having some girl on girl action...remind me I will show it to you lol

[missitaly]

My hope is that he's thrown in either a state hospital or prison, and never allowed to wander the streets again. He may or may not have had anything to do with JonBenet, but he's still a threat to society.

[kittyinthecity]

So true, he needs to be in an institution. Did you read the excerpts of the e-mails he sent that the newspaper in Denver published? Very disturbed man.

[Linda Lou]

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Zippy:
We already got a taste of JR "being right" LOLOLOLOL

Touting touting touting !
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=1545313
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Oh, don't you know it Sistah! Good Lord. Funny, but closely after the news broke, I just thought, "Oh crap! JR's gonna have a field day with this one".

[Hershey]

Explanation in The Rocky Mountain News of the mysterious bear in JonBenet's bedroom and possible link to the suspect. Sounds like a non-issue.

SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMwww.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4929507,00.html

[Linda Lou]

What I don't understand in that article, is how the Ramsey's said that they didn't recognize the bear, and yet later, it was identified as a prize she won in a beauty pageant. How could they say they didn't recognize it?? Just who identified it as the prize from the pageant?? It's all so strange.

[KaliChris]

I thought I heard Patsy's sister say it was an "exchange" between pagent kids.

[Hershey]

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Linda Lou:
What I don't understand in that article, is how the Ramsey's said that they didn't recognize the bear, and yet later, it was identified as a prize she won in a beauty pageant.
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Patsy could very well have recognized it and said she didn't to mislead detectives. (Sorry, J.R. LOL but that's certainly a possibility). If Patsy did write that ransom note, she wasn't above saying she didn't recognize a stuffed animal to throw detectives off the track!

[Zippy]

Wild spectulation!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok I apologize for that out burst...but it was going to be said anyway LOLOLOL

[Linda Lou]

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Zippy:
Wild spectulation!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok I apologize for that out burst...but it was going to be said anyway LOLOLOL
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Ya just couldn't resist, could ya Zip! LOL!

[Hershey]

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Zippy:
Wild spectulation!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Is it? I dont' think so. If it's been proven that it was given to JB at a pageant, then how could Patsy NOT have recognized it?

[Zippy]

LOL

I apologize Hershey I was just doing my impression of JR

I got the talk down right...I need to work on the swagger now

:)

[kitten4762]

Everybody keeps mentioning that this guy confessed that he killed JonBenet but that's really not what he said in that live news conference. You notice that he gave no details about actually doing anything. He said that he was "with" JonBenet when she died. He's so weird and obsessed with her death that he could have meant that he was "with" her spiritually or something like that. And by saying he was not innocent..he could be thinking in his mind something like only little children are really innocent or something like that. According to one of the ex Mrs. Karrs attorney..no investigators even bothered to call and ask her if she could provide an alibi. After all the police, private investigators, attorneys, medical examiners, journalists, etc that have been involved with this case..I can't imagine that there are actually details of the murder left that haven't gotten out. Someone so obsessed with the JonBenet murder like John Mark Karr apparently was, was probably able to discover alot of things the general public wouldn't know. And that professor that he was emailing...I don't get it. My gut is telling me that this is not the guy.
People keep mentioning over and over that the Ramseys did not co-operate with the police, when that simply is not true. They answered police questions, gave blood samples, fingerprints, writing samples, financial records, medical records...you name it. They did refuse to be subjected to an interrogation at police headquarters right after the murder because they (especially Patsy) were medicated and were in extreme grief. In turn the Boulder Keystone Kops decided to try and withhold Jonbenet's body for burial until they agreed, which forever changed the relationship between the Ramsey's and the police. If you actually study the case, you will find that alot of the negative information you hear about the Ramseys is inaccurate and was probably leaked to media by the disgruntled Boulder police or made up by tabloids.

[kittyinthecity]

i like your avatar, kitten.

[Hershey]

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kitten4762:
In turn the Boulder Keystone Kops decided to try and withhold Jonbenet's body for burial until they agreed, which forever changed the relationship between the Ramsey's and the police. If you actually study the case, you will find that alot of the negative information you hear about the Ramseys is inaccurate and was probably leaked to media by the disgruntled Boulder police or made up by tabloids.
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I totally disagree with you, and I did "actually study the case."

[LT Lurker]

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kitten4762:
In turn the Boulder Keystone Kops decided to try and withhold Jonbenet's body for burial until they agreed, which forever changed the relationship between the Ramsey's and the police. If you actually study the case, you will find that alot of the negative information you hear about the Ramseys is inaccurate and was probably leaked to media by the disgruntled Boulder police or made up by tabloids.
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I am sick and tired of hearing about the "keystone cops". Ever since the OJ case, forensics and police evidence units have made great strides to improve their methods of collecting and storing evidence and how they deal with murder suspects and cases - especially high-profiled ones. I don't recall many errors being made in this case, but again since it's still an active investigation we won't hear the real truth until it all comes out in court. Many many lessons were learned by the OJ fiasco - by both the police and prosecution.

Along those lines - about details coming out in court - I can see where the police were in quite a bind with what information to disclose and what not to disclose. See in a death investigation and the death of a loved one, relatives - and the press pigs - want details. Some police feel that it is better to tell the family some details rather than have them come out in court. Some don't. Again, it is up to the DA quite often and also the lead investigators. Also, don't confuse the DA weaknesses with those of the police.

No, I didn't study the case, but I do know a little about homicide investigations and it isn't like you see on CSI exactly. It isn't solved in 1 hour, and sometimes experts are not available.

This will be very interesting to follow as Mr. Karr makes it to the courtroom. But my gut too is telling me this guy isn't the murderer. He's a psycho wanna-be who is obsessed with this high-profile case.

[missitaly]

Who paid for this? Jeez.


ABOARD THAI AIRWAYS TO LOS ANGELES - John Mark Karr, the suspect in the death of 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey, sipped champagne and ate fried king prawns in business class Sunday after being put aboard a flight to Los Angeles to face charges in the United States. As Karr wined and dined in style and chatted with the three U.S. officials escorting him, another bombshell emerged: Reports that Karr sought treatment at a Thai sex-change clinic.

[Hershey]

I have read much about this case. Among the police errors:

There was only one detective on the scene for a while, even though she called for backup and none came for hours - it was Christmas Day and the police were short staffed because so many were off for the holiday. This was while the police still thought it was a kidnapping, not a murder.The house was not treated as a crime scene from the get-go. The Ramseys had several friends there for support and comfort, so there were already a lot of people at the house, moving things around, leaving fingerprints, etc. The detective on the scene could not keep track of everyone in the house and John Ramsey went down to the basement by himself once - and did who knows what down there? Later, the same detective told John Ramsey and Fleet White to look through the house to see if they could find JonBenet. Only the police should have been searching the house. That was a mistake. John found the body (even though Fleet White had looked in that same little room and didn't see anything because it was too dark, yet John did). John R. ripped the tape off JB's mouth, and carried the body upstairs. Of course, the body shouldn't have been moved and the crime scene was forever compromised. Then, the detective herself placed a blanket over the body - a bad mistake because fibers got transferred to the body that weren't there in the first place. She certainly should have known better.

For a description of all the police errors, I recommend the lead detective's book, Steve Thomas'. It's called JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Investigation. He points out the police errors and there were a lot of them.

[Linda Lou]

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missitaly:
Who paid for this? Jeez.


ABOARD THAI AIRWAYS TO LOS ANGELES - John Mark Karr, the suspect in the death of 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey, sipped champagne and ate fried king prawns in business class Sunday after being put aboard a flight to Los Angeles to face charges in the United States. As Karr wined and dined in style and chatted with the three U.S. officials escorting him, another bombshell emerged: Reports that Karr sought treatment at a Thai sex-change clinic.
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=1545894
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Isn't it something, Jenn?? I was just reading Reuters, and they describe him as "traveling in style". How very nice. :( The sex change revelation is another freaky twist.

[Linda Lou]

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LT Lurker:
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This will be very interesting to follow as Mr. Karr makes it to the courtroom. But my gut too is telling me this guy isn't the murderer. He's a psycho wanna-be who is obsessed with this high-profile case.
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ITA, LT, and I have a feeling that he is ONLY that, a psycho wanna-be, and nothing more.

[Hershey]

SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMwww.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=401489&in_page_id=1770

Link I read earlier today about the suspect seeking a sex change operation.

[LT Lurker]

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Hershey:
I have read much about this case. Among the police errors:

......For a description of all the police errors, I recommend the lead detective's book, Steve Thomas'. It's called JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Investigation. He points out the police errors and there were a lot of them.

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Again, I'm going to wait until this is tried in a courtroom rather than being exasperated by posters here. No investigation is perfect. No crime is perfect. Hindsight is always 20/20 and again I'll say real life isn't "perfect" like CSI cases are.

[Linda Lou]

Interesting about him seeking a sex change, but strangely, not surprising. He IS, after all, a lunatic. It's difficult to remain neutral about him being the killer, but I can't wait to see what the DNA results bring.

[missitaly]

If nothing else becomes of this the good news is that he's off the streets. My hope is that he can be locked up somewhere as a "threat" (or however the police want to classify him). I think I read that he did have child porn, but they're waiting for the JonBenet investigation to pan out before they go after him about that.

[Hershey]

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LT Lurker:
Again, I'm going to wait until this is tried in a courtroom rather than being exasperated by posters here.
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My post, which you quoted, wasn't about this current suspect's guilt or innocence at all. It was about police error.

[Sooner]

Anyone watch "Investigators" last night?

It was interesting seeing how this case has progressed now that they have a group investigating it rather than the police.

[Linda Lou]

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Sooner:
Anyone watch "Investigators" last night?

It was interesting seeing how this case has progressed now that they have a group investigating it rather than the police.
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I might have. LOL! I have been flipping around, watching so many darned shows on this flake, I can't even be sure what the names are anymore.

[LT Lurker]

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Hershey:
My post, which you quoted, wasn't about this current suspect's guilt or innocence at all. It was about police error.

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Ah, no sheet Sherlock. I'd ask you what you point is but I really don't care. Have a loverly evening Inspector Clousseau.

[Hershey]

Why on earth is Karr being escorted home from Thailand by Homeland Security guards? Why not by Boulder Police or other law enforcement? Homeland Security????

[Hershey]

LOL Ann Bremner on Fox just made a funny comment. She said that after being on the plane for 15 hrs., Karr has probably had so much time to think that, when he gets to California he'll get off the plane and confess to the Lindburgh murder, being one of the people who murdered O.J.'s wife, and the murder of Sam Sheppard's wife.

LOL that was pretty funny.

[LT Lurker]

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Hershey:
Why on earth is Karr being escorted home from Thailand by Homeland Security guards? Why not by Boulder Police or other law enforcement? Homeland Security????

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DHS - the Department of Homeland Security was formed in 2002. It combined 22 different branches of government, including Border Patrol, Immigration, and Transportation Security Agency to name a few. You can read all about the department here:

SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMwww.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/editorial/editorial_0133.xml

Now, why wouldn't the Boulder PD or "other law enforcment" bring Perv Karr home? Because DHS *IS* law enforcement and the process would be expedited. I didn't research this entire thing, as some have time to do... but I would guesstimate that this is an international situation at this point since Karr was located to another country.

Also, he was not in custody per se when he was on the plane ride. He VOLUNTARILY took that little trip back to the US. NOW the extradition process from LA to Boulder begins.

[Linda Lou]

I was watching a show on MSNBC at 12:00a.m., entitled "JonBenet--Who's the Real Killer?", which gave all the latest updates on JMK, and detailed the case from the very beginning.... I don't know if I'm alone in this, but I just thought that it was extremely bizarre, when they did a split screen, to then show JMK's plane landing in L.A.

I mean, what hasn't been bizarre concerning this case, but it was very distracting, and then they just left the up the split screen for the duration of the show, focused on the then landed plane! Also, I still can't get past the reports of him sipping champagne, and eating prawns, when he should've been given warm water and stale bread.

[Curvigirl]

If his escort was Homeland Security and not Boulder PD, why did his T-shirt (so professional! jeans and a t-shirt) read "BOLDER BOULDER"?

Odd.

[LT Lurker]

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Curvigirl:
If his escort was Homeland Security and not Boulder PD, why did his T-shirt (so professional! jeans and a t-shirt) read "BOLDER BOULDER"?

Odd.

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I didn't see this, but I would say the authorities are psyching him out. Making him feel all cozy and comfortable and giving him the attention he's so desired. While many have already convicted him in their minds, the judicial system has yet to do so. He may just be a perv psycho in need of some serious mental help. Innocent until proven guilty....

[Zippy]

I heard they catered to him on the plane to see if they could get some more info from him. I guess its that catching insane flies with expensive honey thing lol

[Curvigirl]

The clip I saw on the news clearly shows a guy in jeans and a T-shirt sitting next to him on the plane, at one point smiling or almost laughing, and his shirt was like something you'd get on vacation that said BOLDER BOULDER.

I would have thought if they wanted to make him more comfortable, his escort would have worn something from Michael Jackson's Thriller tour.

[LT Lurker]

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Curvigirl:
The clip I saw on the news clearly shows a guy in jeans and a T-shirt sitting next to him on the plane, at one point smiling or almost laughing, and his shirt was like something you'd get on vacation that said BOLDER BOULDER.
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If you google "bolder Boulder" you'll see that it is a 10K road race in Boulder Colorado. I have no other explanations than perhaps it was "casual Friday...". I don't know why the focus is on the escort anyway. Perv Karr was not in custody, technically, and I really think it's all part of trying to be a kinder, gentler, LEO.... but what do I know. Just wild speculation like the rest of the peanut gallery watching this all unfold...

[Curvigirl]

I'm just curious about the Boulder part because he hasn't been turned over to the Boulder police yet, so it seemed odd that a guy from Homeland Security would be wearing that particular shirt.

I'm also wondering about the furtive darting sideways glances Karr keeps throwing. My guess is he's trying to catch a glimpse of one of the voices in his head. :P

[Hershey]

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Curvigirl:
I'm also wondering about the furtive darting sideways glances Karr keeps throwing. My guess is he's trying to catch a glimpse of one of the voices in his head. :P
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My guess is he's wondering how many of the people around him know he was really in Bangkok to get de-cocked!

[LT Lurker]

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Curvigirl:
I'm just curious about the Boulder part because he hasn't been turned over to the Boulder police yet, so it seemed odd that a guy from Homeland Security would be wearing that particular shirt.

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Perhaps it is a DHS employee who was based in Boulder. The LEO could know stuff about the case and would be a good listener if Mr. Karr wanted to chit chat about the case. And, seeing that he really wasn't in custody, those statements could be used against him. I'd say the shirt might be a good conversation starter, no? It's got you asking questions, huh?

Furtive darting glances? I haven't really seen them, but off the top of my head they scream "liar" to me. Subtle body language says a lot. Sometimes it says a lot more than the person using it ever knows.

[Hershey]

N. Y. Post's headline today, above a photo of Karr seated on the airplane, was "Snake on a Plane." Good one, N.Y. Post!

[Hellfire]

I got the impression with all the side looks was that Karr was making sure all media attention was still focused on him.

Glenn and I talked about this when it first hit the fan and I told him then how concerned I was that this guy seemed to love the camera on him. Usual behavior is for the person to try to hide themselves because they know they have done wrong.

So far nothing about this case is normal and nothing about Karr is normal. Waiting impatiently for some hard evidence.

[Linda Lou]

OT, but while I was watching a show about JBR, they showed a preview of a documentary on 9/11, that looked fascinating. It's on the Court network, at 9:00 pm EST. It's called "On Native Soil----9/11 Commission.

[Hellfire]

I still have trouble watching things on or about 9/11:(
It's so hard.

The new movie that is out. Maybe when I'm about 90 I'll be able to watch it.

[Linda Lou]

They said in the preview, that they were going to be releasing some information about 9/11 not previously known before, so I'm going to watch it.

[Hershey]

Doubts deepen about suspect in JonBenet case
Karr's father, brothers say he was with them at time of killing

The father and brothers of John Mark Karr, the man arrested on suspicion of killing JonBenet Ramsey in Colorado the day after Christmas a decade ago, do not recall him ever missing Christmas dinner in Atlanta or traveling to Colorado after the holiday, a lawyer for the family said Monday.

Gary Harris said that the suspect's father, Wexford Karr, found a photograph indicating that his son was part of the family's 1996 Christmas gathering, the day before the child beauty queen was found strangled in her home in Boulder.

The Christmas Day photograph does not include John Karr but shows his three sons, who, Harris said, never attended the holiday dinner without their parents. Although the photo is undated, the lawyer said the family is certain it was taken in 1996, because an infant pictured in it, Karr's nephew, was 2 weeks old that Christmas. ...

Harris said that none of Karr's relatives remembers him ever missing Christmas celebrations before he disappeared five years ago. Moreover, he said, they do not think Karr has ever been in Boulder or ever took a trip right after Christmas.

"These people are not well-off financially," he said, adding that it would have been "a big deal" for him to take a trip by plane. Harris said the family is "frantically looking for" other photographs from their 1996 Christmas gathering.

Source: SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMwww.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4132241.html

[Linda Lou]

The whole sex change scenario is really throwing me off. Obviously, JMK's not well off financially, as his living situation in Thailand suggests. How in the world could he afford such an extremely costly operation, not to mention the fact that he goes from being obsessed with little girls to wanting to become one???? Crazy, crazy.

[kittyinthecity]

the operation was very cheap in Thailand, I think they said $1600.00 or $2600.00.

[Linda Lou]

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kittyinthecity:
the operation was very cheap in Thailand, I think they said $1600.00 or $2600.00.
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Is it really?? I didn't realize that. Nothing like paying bottom dollar to get your pee pee cut off. Whatever. Still, it's absurd that he wants to become a girl, but what isn't in regard to him?

I had to laugh when I read a quote from a Sheriff's Deputy from the prison he's being held in. He said "He won't be getting any special treatment here. He'll be eating prison chow just like the rest. No sir, he won't be finding any King Crab and champagne here." lol!

[Zippy]

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Linda Lou:
. Nothing like paying bottom dollar to get your pee pee cut off.

________


LOLOL!! Linda this thread is sad ...confusing and freaky

Thanks for the laugh !

[Linda Lou]

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Zippy:
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Linda Lou:
. Nothing like paying bottom dollar to get your pee pee cut off.

________


LOLOL!! Linda this thread is sad ...confusing and freaky

Thanks for the laugh !
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Happy to oblige Zip. I have a feeling he'll "find" himself, while in prison.

[Acura]

I think what happened to Jon Benet was terrible! I grew up in Atlanta during the Atlanta Killings. Wayne Williams got sentenced for many of them. Those kids never got the press Jon Benet is getting for many reasons. I think it is pretty sad.

[Curvigirl]

You make a good point, Acura. There have been several murders in the bay area where I live since the Karr story broke, and even if you add them all together they haven't received a quarter of the coverage the Ramsey case has in the last week alone. Their lives had no less value than hers, but they get a paragraph on page 12 of section B in the newspaper. The media pretty much decides what they're going to cover, and what they cover in depth is what gets people talking.

[Hershey]

Acura, I agree with your point, although those killings did get a lot of publicity (though not as much as JB). I think a lot of what makes the JB murder so fascinating is those videotapes of her dressed up hooker-like at those pageants, and how shocking it was that parents would parade around their child like that. Were it not for those videotapes, I don't think the story would ever have garnered as much interest. Also, there is the "was she or wasn't she?" sexually molested over a period of time angle and also the was there an intruder or wasn't there? angle. And of course the parents' very weird behavior. Titillating mysteries. So there is a lot that's intruiging about the case.

In a way, the more murders, the harder to "sink in" and empathize with. I don't think the Atlanta murders got any less publicity than the zodiac killer murders or the nighstalker murders or the Wayne Gacy murders, etc. But it's harder for people to wrap their minds around a series of murders than to embrace that little girl with the angelic beautiful face and care about finding out what happened to her. In the same way that if you see a photo of a single soldier kidnapped or killed in Iraq, it's easier to wrap your mind around that than hearing that 12 marines were killed today, even if they publish all 12 photos.

[Hershey]

Interesting. Dr. Henry Lee is on Greta's show right now talking about how complicated the layout of the house is. He said the room where JonBenet was found is actually a room within another room (I think he meant "beyond") and that's why the police didn't find the body after they searched twice for it. He also is talking about how hard it would be for a stranger to even know which bedroom was JB's. Yet, whoever killed JB navigated the house just fine at night, with people sleeping in the house, w/out waking them up. Interesting.

[Hershey]

Foxnews just reported that the DNA found on JonBenet does NOT match John Mark Karr's DNA (boy, no surprise about that). Fox got this report from a Denver radio station and Fox has not been able to confirm.

Also being reported is that the D.A. is not going to charge Karr.

Nancy Grace tonight has an exclusive interview with a witness who claims he can put Karr in Boulder at the time of the murder. As Nancy just said,
now we'll need to figure out both if Karr is lying and if this guy is lying. Sigh!

CNN is also reporting no DNA match or charges to be filed. Here's the link:

SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMwww.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/28/ramsey.arrest/index.html

[Linda Lou]

Can't wait to see what J.R. has to say about this. It was stated by a former prosecutor in the case last night, that if the DNA didn't match, there was no case.

[KaliChris]

Hershey:
Interesting. Dr. Henry Lee is on Greta's show right now talking about how complicated the layout of the house is. He said the room where JonBenet was found is actually a room within another room (I think he meant "beyond") and that's why the police didn't find the body after they searched twice for it. He also is talking about how hard it would be for a stranger to even know which bedroom was JB's. Yet, whoever killed JB navigated the house just fine at night, with people sleeping in the house, w/out waking them up. Interesting.
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Maybe the killer had been in that house before though. Patsy's sister said they opened their doors to everybody and that ANYBODY could have been at that Christmas party they threw.

I also checked out the layout of that house and I CAN see how an intruder couild have navigated that house without waking anybody up. That is a huge house and the parents had the whole third floor for their bedroom suite. Elizabeth Smart's parents were sleeping on the same floor as their kids when she was kidnapped, and the only one in the house to wake up was her sister, who was sleeping in the same bed with her.

It also still remains to be seen how he knew all those private details of the case that had never been released to the public.

[Hershey]

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KaliChris:

Maybe the killer had been in that house before though. Patsy's sister said they opened their doors to everybody and that ANYBODY could have been at that Christmas party they threw.

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That's true, KaliChris, but that room was so remote. The police searched the house twice on the day she was missing and didn't find that room. So I certainly see your point, but I think because of the particular location where she was found, it is unlikely that an intruder committed this act (that and the ransom note written on the pad from the house, the draft of it, the pen it was written with being put back neatly in a pencil holder on a shelf underneath a telephone - who knew to put it back there)? What you write isp ossible but unlikely IMO.

[KaliChris]

I initially suspected the parents, but I'm now leaning towards an intruder after all this and watching more interviews with the parents, etc. I really think they had nothing to do with it.

Let's say an intruder laid in wait for them to come home for a few hours that night. He could have already cased out the whole house and discovered that out of the way basement room.

[Linda Lou]

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KaliChris:
I initially suspected the parents, but I'm now leaning towards an intruder after all this and watching more interviews with the parents, etc. I really think they had nothing to do with it.

Let's say an intruder laid in wait for them to come home for a few hours that night. He could have already cased out the whole house and discovered that out of the way basement room.
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I've come to some of the same conclusions myself, Kali.

[KaliChris]

You too, huh?

Where's Dani? She needs to know we've come over to "her side".

[Curvigirl]

They just announced on the news Karr is on his way back to face the old kiddie porn charges here in Sonoma County.

Maybe I'll get lucky and draw jury duty. :P

[KaliChris]

I hope you do get to. lol

Seriously though, I hope this creep doesn't end up a free man. I do believe he has harmed other little girls. :(

[Mammy]

I think a family member would have been an idiot to use a pad of paper and pen from the house and put it back when finished using it. It was a deliberate act to cast suspicion on the family. I think an intruder was in the house enough possibly coming in through an unlocked window while the Ramsey's were gone. This could have gone on for months until the person knew enough about the home to feel comfortable and familiar with the house. At this point anything is possible.

[DKLA]

California wants him - he'll do time I think.

[Linda Lou]

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DKLA:
California wants him - he'll do time I think.
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=1549082
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Yes, I heard on the news that he's wanted on 5 charges there. Good. I couldn't believe that they were just going to let him go back to Thailand to get his pee-pee removed, with no repercussions from his "admission. I think he's on the right track with the pending operation.

[Mel]

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Hershey:
Why on earth is Karr being escorted home from Thailand by Homeland Security guards? Why not by Boulder Police or other law enforcement? Homeland Security????
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=1545959
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The reason is because fighting child porn on the internet is a major priority of the administration and it is handled by DHS.

From what I've read, it would have been very time consuming to extradite Karr on the MISDEANOR charges & allegedly, Boulder was so sure he was the killer they extradited him on THAT charge.


After Karr was arrested on the 5 misdemeanor charges & spent 6 months in jail awaiting trial, his wife divorced him AND went to court to get an order of protection against him & sole custody. It's perfectly logical that after losing EVERYTHING, he would walk away from his family & leave the country. He probably felt like he had nothing left here.


Come to find out that the ONLY 'tip' Boulder had came from Michael Tracey, the producer who did 3 documentaries touting (Zippy, I said TOUTING! LOL) the Ramsey's innocence. Tracey certainly was in a position to know any inside info that the Ramseys might have shared with him.

Karr once did a paper on JBR and a college professor said it was SO GOOD, he should write a book.

My feeling is that after his obsession with Polly Klaas, he moved onto JBR and might have been searching the internet for any porn pics of JB that might have wound up online and that was the beginning of his descent into total 'craziness.'

Once he met up with Tracey, another person who was overly obsessed with the case & he figured would have inside info, Karr might have started to tell Tracey what he wanted to hear in order to continue their relationship. I'd like to know what Tracey told Karr during 4 years of correspondence? They BOTH want to write books & they BOTH might have wanted to use their 'relationship' as a new angle for their books. Tracey previously turned other supsects over to police but they never panned out, this was a new chance for him to be the hero who caught the 'real killer.'

As far as the sex change plans, it's interesting that Karr compares himself to Michael Jackson... a man who has made plastic surgery a signature. Maybe that's where his madness took him... to consider the most drastic of all forms of plastic surgey?


Karr's got serious mental problems but we have yet to hear of a single child he ever hurt or even touched inappropriately. The exception being his own 13 year old wife when he was a teenager. And that story is pretty vague also, I'm not sure she or her family was very honest about their relationship.

[Mel]

Stun Gun theory.

According to Lou Smit (the detective working for the DA's office & who believed an intruder killed JB) there was only ONE stun gun that could have possibly left the same marks that was found on JB's body.... an Air Taser.

According to a spokesman for Air Taser, the marks on JB's body were NOT the same type of marks that would be left by an Air Taser.

Lou Smit himself admitted that the only way to know for sure IF a stun gun was used on JB was to exhume her body. John Ramsey said the same thing. Medical experts said they could only testify within a 95% certainty rate that a stun gun was used.

The Ramseys would not agree to have JB's body exhumed & law enforcement didn't push for it.

The Ramseys would benefit by proving beyond a doubt that a stun gun was used and they chose not to.

If the case ever goes to court, any defense attorney will tell a jury that they can't ever be sure a stun gun was really used.



The suspect that commited suicide was Michael Helgoth. A real creep, no doubt. It's thought that he was murdered by an accomplice to silence him about the case.

At his home, they found a stun gun (oops... no exhumed body, so that's going to be hard to prove to a jury) AND some Hi-Tec boots.

Lou Smit goes so far to say that some material found on the soles of Helgoth's boots look just like the algae that was found in the Ramsey wein cellar (basement room where the body was found.)

Now you'd think with such damning evidence that could easily be checked in a crime lab would solve this case or exclude him. Lou Smit never mentions that he bothered to have such important evidence tested. Why would he let another 'intruder theory' be all shot to hell?

I think he DID test it & it came back negative but rather than admit that & see his intruder theory take another stab in the back, he just ignores it as if it never happened. After all, Helgoth's DNA didn't match so they can exclude him on the obvious findings & just ignore the boots.


ALL family members (Burke included), friends of family, business associates & others named by the Ramseys gave dna, hair & print samples. Everyone who was known to be in the house also gave samples.

ALL were excluded... except for the Ramseys because some fiber evidence on JB's body was consistent with clothing the Ramseys wore the night before.

[Zippy]

Thanks for Touting Mel

I knew you could do it !!!! lol