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View Full Version : Vermont....I'm not saying anything else.


Scoops
02-29-2008, 01:46 PM
MONTPELIER, Vt. — Twenty-three years after raising the legal drinking age to 21, Vermont lawmakers are revisiting the issue, despite the threat of losing highway funding if they lower the age minimum.

Convinced that existing laws aren't working, state Sen. Hinda Miller has taken a first step toward rolling back the legal age by introducing a bill that would establish a task force to weigh the pros and cons and make a recommendation to the Legislature later this year.

Mothers Against Drunk Driving and others say it's folly to even consider, saying the higher age limit has saved thousands of lives since the 1984 enactment of the National Minimum Drinking Age Act. The act required states to raise the age to 21 or lose federal transportation money.

Vermont voted to raise the age in 1985, and in the ensuing 20 years, alcohol-related traffic fatalities dropped by 40 percent, according to Vermont State Police.

For now, the debate is an academic one.

"Our laws aren't working. They're not preventing underage drinking. What they're doing is putting it outside the public eye," said Miller, D-Chittenden. "So you have a lot of kids binge drinking. They get sick, they get scared and they get into trouble and they can't call because they know it's illegal."

Miller, who says she isn't sure whether lowering the drinking age is the answer, believes it's an idea worth exploring.

She has taken her cue from John McCardell, a former Middlebury College president who now runs Choose Responsibility, a nonprofit that promotes public awareness of the dangers of excessive drinking by young adults and favors lowering the minimum age to 18.

He contends that the higher age hasn't kept young people from consuming alcohol, instead driving underage consumption underground, particularly on college campuses.

Miller's bill, McCardell says, is part of a larger effort to persuade Congress to grant waivers to exempt states from financial penalty if they lower the age.

"We're trying to see if there are states which would, if Congress should grant a waiver of that condition, come up with a plan that would not simply be lowering the age.

"We don't simply advocate the lower age, but believe mandatory alcohol education and licensing with very strict enforcement for violations of the state's alcohol laws might work. If Congress would grant a waiver, the states would be willing to try something, and at least then we could get some evidence and see whether things are better or worse," McCardell said Thursday.

Politically, it's a hard sell, in part because there are other public health hazards associated with excessive alcohol consumption, not just highway fatalities.

Then there's the financial hammer: Vermont stands to lose about $17 million a year if it were to flout the federal government and lower the drinking age.

Last year, a proposal in New Hampshire to lower the drinking age from 21 to 18 for active duty military personnel was rejected.

"Is there any significant support in the U.S. Congress for changing the law? We don't see that," said Chuck Hurley, CEO of Mothers Against Drunk Driving.

Typically, when states flirt with the idea, they quickly abandon it for fear of losing the highway funding, he said.

"There really is no controversy in the science. It's not even close," he said.

The Vermont bill, which calls for a report to the Legislature by Jan. 15, 2009, does not specify an age, only to have the five-member task force study the implications of lowering it from 21. It was approved Thursday in committee and next goes to the full Senate for a vote.

State Sen. Vincent Illuzzi, who chairs the committee that approved the bill, said he would vote against lowering the age if he had to vote now.

But he said it's nonetheless worth looking into.

"I sense the Senate will buy into our rationale, that a law on the books for 20 years should have a look-see, to see if it's having its intended effect or should be modified," said Illuzzi, R-EsOrleans.

But critics are leery.

"I think it is irresponsible legislation, to be quite honest," said William Goggins, director of education and enforcement for the state Liquor Control Board.

"The facts speak for themselves. Once the drinking age was raised, the number of alcohol-related fatalities decreased. To me saving lives is the grandest argument of them all. " he said.


(LWVL)

PK...
02-29-2008, 01:54 PM
I can't even think of a response to this... The article itself has spelled out the flaws...

Might as well legalize drugs, guns, murder and mayhem in general... That same logic applies to those crimes as well... The criminals have all been forced "underground"...

;0))

PK

Scoops
02-29-2008, 02:01 PM
When I was younger and Democratic in thought, I used to think I would like to retire there....now I am sure that would be the quickest route to high blood pressure and stroke!!!

(oops, I guess I said something else.)

PK...
02-29-2008, 02:11 PM
Hah, Scoops...

When you get right down to it, just reading the papers will probably achieve the same thing... So might as well live where you want, just quit reading the papers...

That is a very beautiful part of the country... Three seasons out of the year...

;0))

PK

Jinh
02-29-2008, 02:29 PM
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PK...:
I can't even think of a response to this... The article itself has spelled out the flaws...

Might as well legalize drugs, guns, murder and mayhem in general... That same logic applies to those crimes as well... The criminals have all been forced "underground"...

;0))

PK
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=1738124
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I thought guns were legal, PK.....

As for lowering the drinking age, I can see no real benefits at all...those that want to drink will find a way...but no matter what, keeping the legal age 21, has to reduce the number of young people drinking...it's just logical...dumb argument..IMO

SavhLaney
02-29-2008, 02:42 PM
I can't see any state lowering the drinking age if it means a loss in federal highway funding.

On a similar note, do y'all think the federal govt should be involved in these things or should it be up to each state to decide? Right now, technically, the states control it, but if they don't comply with what the federal govt wants, they are penalized monetarily.

PK...
02-29-2008, 02:46 PM
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Jinh:
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PK...:
I can't even think of a response to this... The article itself has spelled out the flaws...

Might as well legalize drugs, guns, murder and mayhem in general... That same logic applies to those crimes as well... The criminals have all been forced "underground"...

;0))

PK
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=1738124
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I thought guns were legal, PK.....

As for lowering the drinking age, I can see no real benefits at all...those that want to drink will find a way...but no matter what, keeping the legal age 21, has to reduce the number of young people drinking...it's just logical...dumb argument..IMO
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=1738136
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So change that to read, remove all restrictions to the sale of guns, since they are still being sold to criminals 'underground'...

My point is, it's pretty stupid to say, since we can't enforce the laws, just revoke them... It's the slipperiest of slopes leading straight to anarchy......

;0))

PK

samaturekat
02-29-2008, 02:53 PM
How about raising the age to obtain a driver's permit ?

kitten4762
02-29-2008, 03:46 PM
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samaturekat:
How about raising the age to obtain a driver's permit ?
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=1738148
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I so agree with that. 15 year old kids should not be driving.

SavhLaney
02-29-2008, 03:47 PM
I learned to drive at 15 with my Learner's License. I don't see anything wrong with it.

its-dani
02-29-2008, 03:48 PM
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kitten4762:
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samaturekat:
How about raising the age to obtain a driver's permit ?
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=1738148
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I so agree with that. 15 year old kids should not be driving.
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=1738192
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Can you drive at 15? here it is, 16 and very limited, I think it should be 21

Skeeter
02-29-2008, 03:51 PM
Sometimes I'm not sure why there is a legal drinking age......it seems kids drink -- parents provide (illegally) -- and people die......I don't really know what the answer is.....

Sam -- what is your driving age? What is the driving age for most places in the US? In Ohio, you get your permit at 15 1/2; license at 16, BUT you can't transport more than one person until you are 17.

:)

Skeeter

PK...
02-29-2008, 03:55 PM
Depending on the state...

Learners permit at 15 with a licensed driver in the car...

Driver's ed usually is in the 10th grade...

In the "olden days" before Driver's Ed, you were on your own, just had to pass the test at age 16 - including parallel parking...

I have noted that in this day and age, if you have passed Driver's Ed, you don't have to take a driving test, only the written...

;0))

PK

SavhLaney
02-29-2008, 03:56 PM
I think the particulars vary by state of when you can ger a learner's permit, how long you have to have the learner's before you can take the full driver's test, etc.

samkardkat
02-29-2008, 03:56 PM
I got my license at 16 and was able to drink legally at 18.
You have to be 18 to buy a lotto ticket and/or cigarettes.

Skeeter
02-29-2008, 04:08 PM
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PK...:


I have noted that in this day and age, if you have passed Driver's Ed, you don't have to take a driving test, only the written...

;0))

PK
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=1738198
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Not here!!! Still have a written test to get permit, with driving and parking test to get your license.....

:)

Skeeter

Skeeter
02-29-2008, 04:08 PM
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SavhLaney:
I think the particulars vary by state of when you can ger a learner's permit, how long you have to have the learner's before you can take the full driver's test, etc.
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What is it in your state, SavhLaney?

Skeeter
02-29-2008, 04:09 PM
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samkardkat:
I got my license at 16 and was able to drink legally at 18.
You have to be 18 to buy a lotto ticket and/or cigarettes.
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=1738200
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Same here, Sam -- except the drinking part!

:)

Skeeter

SavhLaney
02-29-2008, 04:11 PM
I haven't had to cross that bridge with my son yet, so I am not "up" on all the particulars. I do know that a teenager has to have their learners for a full year before taking the driver's test. I am pretty sure that there is still written and driving that have to be passed. Once they get their permit, they are not allowed to drive anyone other than family for six months, i.e. no friends piling in to go out.

SavhLaney
02-29-2008, 04:13 PM
My older sisters were able to drink legally at 18, then they moved it to 19 before my time. After I was 19 they upped it to 21, but I was grandfathered in and did not lose the right.

Skeeter
02-29-2008, 04:14 PM
I love your rules -- they are looking to change ours, and there may have already been legislation to do so, but if so, I'm not sure when it takes effect......

The more time we have to train, the better!

:)

Skeeter

kitten4762
02-29-2008, 04:21 PM
In Va it's age 15yrs 6mos for a Learners Permit and 16yrs 3 mos for an actual driver's license. They can't get in to R rated movies but they are allowed to pilot a fast moving 5000 pound mass of steel on the public streets...it's crazy.

PK...
02-29-2008, 04:24 PM
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Skeeter:
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PK...:


I have noted that in this day and age, if you have passed Driver's Ed, you don't have to take a driving test, only the written...

;0))

PK
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=1738198
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Not here!!! Still have a written test to get permit, with driving and parking test to get your license.....

:)

Skeeter
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=1738210
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That was what daughter said about the current Texas laws... I think it's a matter of economics... Texas is BIG....

Taking state patrolmen off the highways to sit with kids from driver's ed is very expensive... Their time would be better spent patrollingt the extensive highway system. looking for the die hard rednecks who still insist on driving with a beer in hand..

;0))

PK

PK...
02-29-2008, 06:41 PM
Curiously...

Our local station is posing the question about lowering the legal drinking age as their email question on the 10 o'clock news...

;0))

PK

Scoops
02-29-2008, 06:44 PM
eek....I hope this isn't a trend.

PK...
02-29-2008, 06:51 PM
Their question was the result of the Vermont blurb... Only a couple of mixed responses, but we are talking local news... They won't commit...

;0))

PK

Scoops
02-29-2008, 06:53 PM
well, we were all over it here first. lol

g'night PK...enjoy the BB crappiness! I will read all about it in the AM!!!

PK...
02-29-2008, 06:55 PM
Nighters...

;0))

PK

Me_Kali
02-29-2008, 08:21 PM
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samaturekat:
How about raising the age to obtain a driver's permit ?
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=1738148
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I'm all for that too and they also make it easier to get one than when I started driving. A kid in my driver's training car didn't even pass.

As far as the legal drinking age? I have a lot of family in Arizona and it's 19 there, but it's 21 here in California, which I think it should be.

ItsKali
02-29-2008, 08:24 PM
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Skeeter:
Sometimes I'm not sure why there is a legal drinking age......it seems kids drink -- parents provide (illegally) -- and people die......I don't really know what the answer is.....

Sam -- what is your driving age? What is the driving age for most places in the US? In Ohio, you get your permit at 15 1/2; license at 16, BUT you can't transport more than one person until you are 17.

:)

Skeeter
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=1738197
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In California, you can get your permit at 15-1/2, license at 16 but it's a provisional license. You can't transport another minor without an adult, 25 or over, in the car, and you can't drive between the hours of midnight and 5 a.m. That's for the first year or until you turn 18. It wasn't like this when I started driving but it changed before my son got his license.