Debate 08 Report Card

[sam king cat]

Was there a clear winner ?

[PK...]

The jist of what I've seen is that Palin won hands down on presentation, and Biden won on knowledge....

Those areas in 2hidh she was familiar and comfortable, she won, those she was shaky on, Biden won... But as long as he's been in the Senate, he should be more versed in everything.... And I wonder what FactCheck.org has to say about his facts, LOL....

The winner also depends on which party you talk to...

;0))

PK

[sam king cat]

I think it is a very close call.

Both did well. I got a warm fuzzy feeling from both. Nothing earth shattering.

I don't know if the debate will change the race.

I think those who were undecided will remain undecided.

[amber]

I agree with PK, that it comes down too which party you talk too.

The dems will say Biden, the Rep will say Palin.

Either way it's only the vp not president debate, so I really don't see this changing much for either side.

[Mia]

I think the debate was much better then the Presidential debate last week.

Palin, in my opinion, did much better then when being interviewed. Actually, she did much better then I anticipated. I do have to agree with what Susan said on another thread that Palin went off topic and the question re the Achilles heel which was answered incorrectly.

[PK...]

It's hard to tell whether there will be a McCain "VP Debate Bump", as it were... There might be, since people were questioning McCain's judgement by putting her on the ticket. The consensus seems to be she has taken that issue off the table by her performance tonight....

It may only regain him the support he had before the media played up the perceived weakness in her interviews.... Or he might get nothing....

I'll be interested to see what happens next...

;0))

PK

[Webster]

I thought Sarah did great. She did answer the Achilles heel question. She said something to the effect that when you are a governor sometimes you have to compromise and sign bills where you may not agree with every last item in them. Something like that -- I'm sure there will be a transcript on the Net tomorrow...................

[PK...]

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Mia;1787046:
I think the debate was much better then the Presidential debate last week.

Palin, in my opinion, did much better then when being interviewed. Actually, she did much better then I anticipated. I do have to agree with what Susan said on another thread that Palin went off topic and the question re the Achilles heel which was answered incorrectly.
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I noticed that, but have heard politicians do it so often, it just rolled off... It seems to be standard operating procedure...

Considering her amount of experience compared to Biden, she may not even be aware if she has any others, LOL...

And, OMG, if she copped to having another, I can just imagine the media circus...

I'm sure Biden is most aware of his other weaknesses from his years in office, and especially his run for the presidency...

;0))

PK

[PK...]

Webster, I think that was a different question... Something about ever having to do something that really went against the grain... It may have been the next question, or the one before, can't remember...

The transcript will be a good reference, though.... Especially for discussion here, LOL...

'0))

PK

[Mia]

In a way, I feel sorry for Sarah. I don't think she ever expected to be on the ticket and out of nowhere there she is.

I think she is scrutinized more because nobody really knew who she was.

[Mia]

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PK...;1787050:
Webster, I think that was a different question... Something about ever having to do something that really went against the grain... It may have been the next question, or the one before, can't remember...

The transcript will be a good reference, though.... Especially for discussion here, LOL...

'0))

PK
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They're repeating the debate on CNN. Why wait till tomorrow? Oh, it's already tomorrow.

[PK...]

I thought Claire McCaskell (new Dem. Senator from MO) made a valid point when she said she thought the McCain campaign made a mistake shielding her from the press so much... Perhaps the novelty of harassing her would have worn off sooner...

;0))

PK

[Mia]

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PK...;1787053:
I thought Claire McCaskell (new Dem. Senator from MO) made a valid point when she said she thought the McCain campaign made a mistake shielding her from the press so much... Perhaps the novelty of harassing her would have worn off sooner...

;0))

PK
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I agree.

[PK...]

LOL....

The guy she beat for Alaska Governor is at her celebration party in Wasilla.... He debated her during that election, and says he knows exactly how Biden feels...

He felt she was too inexperienced to be governor, and she proved him wrong...

;0))

PK

[PK...]

Hmmm....

I am actually watching FoxNews.... I understand O'Reilly and Barney Frank will be up right now... I guess it's a real knock down drag out... I haven't any idea if it's a rerun or delayed broadcast...

Might be fun, LOL....

;0))

PK

[Susan]

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Mia;1787046:
I think the debate was much better then the Presidential debate last week.

Palin, in my opinion, did much better then when being interviewed. Actually, she did much better then I anticipated. I do have to agree with what Susan said on another thread that Palin went off topic and the question re the Achilles heel which was answered incorrectly.
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I don't think she knew the term "Achilles heel." Definitely not something I'm going to base my vote on, though. Joe Sixpack probably doesn't know it either.

Paul Begala called George Bush "Joe Twelvepack." lol

[Susan]

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PK...;1787055:
LOL....

The guy she beat for Alaska Governor is at her celebration party in Wasilla.... He debated her during that election, and says he knows exactly how Biden feels...

He felt she was too inexperienced to be governor, and she proved him wrong...

;0))

PK
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I think Biden probably feels pretty darn good....he should! Tonight he showed himself to be an extremely qualified, well-spoken, intelligent vice-presidential candidate.

[Scoops]

I can't believe you gals didn't "get" the achilles heel question!!!

Gwen Ifill said first...what would you say in response to those that say that your LACK of experience is your achilles heel...so Sarah responded with an answer that listed her experience strong points. Sarah doesn't feel that lack of experience is her achilles heel...so it would have been a major gaffe to play into it.

Anyone who has ever had a job interview knows that if you are asked that question you never get specific, and it would have been deadly to admit she lacks experience.

Here is Gwen's exact question...there is no way it could be misunderstood like you are all trying to say (reaching, lol) because Gwen says a negative to both.


IFILL: Let's talk conventional wisdom for a moment. The conventional wisdom, Gov. Palin with you, is that your Achilles heel is that you lack experience. Your conventional wisdom against you is that your Achilles heel is that you lack discipline, Sen. Biden. What id it really for you, Gov. Palin? What is it really for you, Sen. Biden? Start with you, governor.


then Palin goes on to say that it was exactly her executive experience that was what McCain was looking for.....and went on to say that it isn't all about experience, it's all about connecting with the American people. I felt she accurately and deftly dodged owning the inexperience label.

Maybe if she started out by saying that she didn't think that was her achilles heel then some people watching would have been able to follow along better. I had no problem.

[PK...]

That is true, but the question asked was to share what was both their "real" Achilles Heels..... Since I didn't hear Sarah cop to having any Achilles Heel, I considered her answer a sidestep into campaign rhetoric.... As I said, it wasn't a big deal to me at all...

I'm sure every word she uttered will be dissected ad nauseum...

;0))

PK

Oh, LOL.... For those thinking I was speaking in tongues last night on the Score Card thread, "2hidh" = "which" typed in a darkened room with my left hand one row too high on the keyboard....

[Runnin Thru]

<<<I can't believe you gals didn't "get" the achilles heel question!!! >>>

<<<<<<<SPAMSPAMSPAMnyone who has ever had a job interview knows that if you are asked that question you never get specific, and it would have been deadly to admit she lacks experience.>>>>>>>>>>




Yes!!!!!! Who on earth gives their negatives during an interview....always, always positive.

btw...On a few split screens, it looked like Biden didn't know what hit him. lol

[Scoops]

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PK...;1787082:
That is true, but the question asked was to share what was both their "real" Achilles Heels..... Since I didn't hear Sarah cop to having any Achilles Heel, I considered her answer a sidestep into campaign rhetoric.... As I said, it wasn't a big deal to me at all...

I'm sure every word she uttered will be dissected ad nauseum...

;0))

PK

Oh, LOL.... For those thinking I was speaking in tongues last night on the Score Card thread, "2hidh" = "which" typed in a darkened room with my left hand one row too high on the keyboard....
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You never answer the "what is your weakest charcteristic?" question...ever., and especially during a nationally televised forum!!!

Biden answered the question so quickly that you hardly knew he addressed it.
Biden sidestepped the question first with a joke and then said briefly that excessive passion was his...(passion is an achilles heel?...I guess if it's excessive, but that 's a weak answer at best) then went on to talk about "change" with Obama and how he understands the american people too...and tried to imply that Sarah said he didn't understand the people because he is a man (which she never ever even hinted at)

[Scoops]

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Runnin Thru;1787086:
<<<I can't believe you gals didn't "get" the achilles heel question!!! >>>

<<<<<<<SPAMSPAMSPAMnyone who has ever had a job interview knows that if you are asked that question you never get specific, and it would have been deadly to admit she lacks experience.>>>>>>>>>>




Yes!!!!!! Who on earth gives their negatives during an interview....always, always positive.

btw...On a few split screens, it looked like Biden didn't know what hit him. lol
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How did you like the big exasperated sigh he gave right in the middle of one of her responses?

Normally Biden doesn't bother me too much, but that was definitely a John Kerry pompous jerk moment.

[Scoops]

Frankly...the more I think about it...the second part of the question "what is it really for you? is preposterous imo.

what a giant gaping trap for either one of them to fall into?????????????


He's too slick to do that, and I bet they were hoping she would go for it.


Thank god she didn't.

[Runnin Thru]

<<<How did you like the big exasperated sigh he gave right in the middle of one of her responses?>>>

I heard it and I did lol. I was thinking more of a Gore moment. lol


I also had the 'wth' moment when he went into the single father story and brought Palin into it....like she somehow demeaned him in some way. I thought I missed something....but no. I guess he knew he had to get those comments in somewhere and time was running out. lol

[PK...]

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Runnin Thru;1787086:

btw...On a few split screens, it looked like Biden didn't know what hit him. lol
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And I thought he looked very peculiar, LOL.... And good grief, he NEVER looked at the camera/the American people....

;0))

PK

[PK...]

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Runnin Thru;1787091:
<<<How did you like the big exasperated sigh he gave right in the middle of one of her responses?>>>

I heard it and I did lol. I was thinking more of a Gore moment. lol


I also had the 'wth' moment when he went into the single father story and brought Palin into it....like she somehow demeaned him in some way. I thought I missed something....but no. I guess he knew he had to get those comments in somewhere and time was running out. lol
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And the catch in his voice, and taking a "moment".... I'm sorry he's had heartache, but considering his penchant for "exaggeration", I found it very hard to take that seriously...

;0))

PK

[DKLA]

He did look like he had an all nighter (aka binge) - LOL!

:/

[PK...]

And sad to say his bags had bags.... A few hours with cucumber slices might have made a difference, LOL....

And a change in barbers.... The rear and side view was a big chuckle....

;0))

PK

[Scoops]

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PK...;1787101:
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Runnin Thru;1787091:
<<<How did you like the big exasperated sigh he gave right in the middle of one of her responses?>>>

I heard it and I did lol. I was thinking more of a Gore moment. lol


I also had the 'wth' moment when he went into the single father story and brought Palin into it....like she somehow demeaned him in some way. I thought I missed something....but no. I guess he knew he had to get those comments in somewhere and time was running out. lol
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And the catch in his voice, and taking a "moment".... I'm sorry he's had heartache, but considering his penchant for "exaggeration", I found it very hard to take that seriously...

;0))

PK
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I didn't want to be the one to go there...since I have been blabbing away...but since you girls did.....wow...to me that was the strangest thing about the whole debate. I believe the man is passionate about his family and I know he loves them ...but to rush that in like v said....when nobody brought it up....bizarre.....and then to have a "moment"....tear up for 2 seconds, and then pop right back into debate speak was too slick for my taste.

I'd rather see Bill Clinton bite his lower lip if I want to see a political drama show....at least he's more fun to watch.

[DKLA]

Last night Joe Biden mopped the floor with Sarah Palin.

What's more, he did it by not coming right out and mopping the floor with her. Biden was cordial, eloquent and uncharacteristically restrained, choosing not to attack Palin head-on but rather to allow her style versus his substance to highlight the very clear decision that voters have in November. There wasn't one moment that I didn't fully believe that Biden is not simply the right choice for Vice President of the United States but that he could easily step into the role of president if required. He proved that he's tough, knowledgeable, experienced, quick on his feet and, most importantly, that he has a singularly keen understanding of the issues facing this country, both foreign and domestic -- an absolute necessity for anyone seeking the second highest office in the free world (one it's positively mind-boggling that some Americans are actually disputing the importance of). He just plain knocked it out of the park.

Sarah Palin, on the other, hand strung two or three complete sentences together consecutively, which means that her performance will be roundly hailed as a success. The fact, however, is that no matter how much she said or how confidently she said it -- she really didn't say much of anything. The McCain campaign handlers -- and needless to say, that's whose hand was up Palin's ass the entire time -- pulled a really neat trick by having their girl essentially make it clear almost right off the bat that she wasn't going to answer any of those pesky questions being asked of her by moderator Gwen Ifill because, well, Ifill's part of the mainstream media and, well, Sarah Palin is a maverick. (I guess that's what mavericks do -- they don't play by the rules and answer questions, despite having agreed upon the debate format ahead of time.) What this did though was allow Palin to basically filibuster about anything she felt like at any given time. It allowed her to essentially give an extended speech divided into dozens of small parts rather face the danger of being tripped up by honest, unscripted interaction.

And really, the thing about Palin's performance tonight is that it was just that: a performance.

Nothing that came out of her mouth -- no inflection or movement of her body -- was unscripted.

Nothing.

Every platitude; every cliché; every wink; every robotic repetition of the McCain camp's tired talking points and, inexplicably, George Bush's failed assertions and cheap one-liners, the stuff even he doesn't bother with anymore -- it was all aimed at bringing the conservative base back on point through vacant charm and sweetly silly folksiness. It was cute to watch, even if it did make your teeth (and your brain) hurt. But it damn sure wasn't vice presidential.

Palin had no idea what the hell she was saying most of the time, but she knew she looked adorable and mildly convincing saying it.

It was almost as if she actually morphed into Tina Fey's impression of her right before our eyes, albeit a more focused and amped-up version of it.

Bottom line though, regardless what you think of the debate -- of who scored big with what and how often -- one thing is absolutely certain after tonight: there's no mistaking the choice the American voters are being given this election.

The lines are drawn more distinctly than in any race we've seen in most of our lifetimes.

[Scoops]

DK....Is that from the malcontent site you referenced the other day?

They seem pretty liberal on there to me.

[DKLA]

Yeppers. He's the son of a friend of mine. Love him.

:)

[PK...]

l found this bit of info interesting....

<<<When a panel of uncommitted voters gathered by Fox News Channel and pollster Frank Luntz were asked for a show of hands on who won the debate, almost everyone picked Palin.

A click away on CNN, Soledad O'Brien asked another panel whether they had made up their mind as a result of the debate. Ten people raised their hands — one sided with McCain, and nine with Barack Obama.>>>

Curious that as little impact as the VP Debate is "supposed" to have on the campaign, that CNN's panel NINE of TEN had made their minds up to vote on Obama based on it... "Gosh Darn It", do you suppose both panels were stacked??? LOL...

;0))

PK thinking Gosh Darn It we have a new "catch phrase" in the making....

[Runnin Thru]

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Scoops;1787106:
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PK...;1787101:
And the catch in his voice, and taking a "moment".... I'm sorry he's had heartache, but considering his penchant for "exaggeration", I found it very hard to take that seriously...

;0))

PK
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...Scoops...
I didn't want to be the one to go there...since I have been blabbing away...but since you girls did.....wow...to me that was the strangest thing about the whole debate. I believe the man is passionate about his family and I know he loves them ...but to rush that in like v said....when nobody brought it up....bizarre.....and then to have a "moment"....tear up for 2 seconds, and then pop right back into debate speak was too slick for my taste.

I'd rather see Bill Clinton bite his lower lip if I want to see a political drama show....at least he's more fun to watch.
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Bizarre is right! And I still can't believe he brought Palin into it. I wonder what was going through her mind.


Biden's 'look.' lol PK already mentioned his eyes and hair, so I'll with it. lol WTH? I've never noticed his eyes so pinnep up or pinned back before? What was going on there? As for his hair, he should just shave his entire head. lol

[DKLA]

PK thinking Gosh Darn It we have a new "catch phrase" in the making....

Yeppers.

:)

[Runnin Thru]

Speaking of catch phrases...how about when she corrected Biden, with a smile too. "It's Drill Baby Drill."

[PK...]

Thanks for describing his eyes, V... I couldn't quite figure out how to do it, LOL... It looked like his eyes were attached to the hair at his temples with no differentiation between skin tone and hair color....

Bad lighting from his angle???

Hah, this was the longest I have ever looked at Biden.... Hope this is the end of THAT, LOL...

Sorry, I usually don't snark on looks, but just had to make an exception this time...

;0))

PK

[PK...]

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Runnin Thru;1787118:
Speaking of catch phrases...how about when she corrected Biden, with a smile too. "It's Drill Baby Drill."
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Hah, yes.... I can see many applications for that one...

;0))

PK

[DKLA]

It looked like his eyes were attached to the hair at his temples with no differentiation between skin tone and hair color....

LOLOL!

[beachreader]

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Sorry, I usually don't snark on looks, but just had to make an exception this time...

;0))

PK
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I usually do not either...but...did he have botox....something looked weird. The middle of his forehead was almost wrinkle free but the sides were shar pe-ish that highlighted the hair on the sides, making for a whole devilish effect.

I did like her hair in the back.

So Obama had the better tie but Sarah had the better hair. lol

j/k

I think that they both did well. It was the 1st time that I have heard either speak (other than the you tube clip posted here of Sarah's "gotcha" moment) so I had no expectations one way or the other.

I was impressed with both but more so with Sarah.
From what I saw of her last night...I like her.

[beachreader]

One thing that did surprise me is Obama/Biden's stance on gay marriage.

I guess that I thought Obama was for it but now that I think about it he has always said that he is for "gay rights". I am not sure what it was that made me assume.
However I am glad that the moderator asked straight out.
I think that a lot of people may have been under that mistaken impression.

[SavhLaney]

So Obama does not support it either? All this time, it has looked like he was for it. I wonder how the gay liberals feel about that?

[DKLA]

I don't think it will bother them. It's too difficult a stance unfortunately.

:/

[SavhLaney]

Governor Palin has been slammed for being opposed to gay marriage, but I have not seen the same for Obama.

[beachreader]

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SavhLaney;1787136:
So Obama does not support it either? All this time, it has looked like he was for it. I wonder how the gay liberals feel about that?
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The moderator asked straight out if Obama was for gay marriage...Biden said No....I gave a little gasp at that.
I think that they were trying to avoid a straight out answer but when asked directly Biden said 'No".
McCain and Obama have the same views on gay rights and "civil unions".
Both are against gay "marriage" but for "civil unions".....(as well as Palin and Biden).

[PK...]

I couldn't find any snarking on Biden's look online, but I probably didn't use the right search criteria, LOL... I DID, however, find this critique, that seems fairly accurate (translate = agrees with my personal opinion, LOL)

And since it was through AOL News, I voted in all the polls while there... That was fun... According to those responding, Palin won the debate, but Biden would be the better VP (by one percentage point...). Most found Biden's "moment" touching and likewise Palin's winking "annoying" (LOL, been there done that, here).... Only majorities in two states think Palin should be removed from the ticket before the election...

If you want to see how your state voted in the last poll, you can find it here.

SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMnews.aol.com/political-machine/2008/10/02/hot-seat-will-palin-drop-out/

The other polls are on the front page of AOL News, if I remember correctly...

One other tidbit gleaned from my late night TV viewing, is that Palin scored higher with men than women on those clickey thingies... (Can you say Meow???)

;0))

PK

Palin Performs
By Mark Impomeni
Oct 3rd 2008 12:00AM

Republican Vice-Presidential nominee, Gov. Sarah Palin, scored an upset victory over Democrat Sen. Joe Biden in the Vice-Presidential debate held tonight at Washington University in St. Louis, MO. Palin has been derided in the media and by Democrats almost since the moment she was selected by Sen. John McCain as an unprepared novice. Palin herself has contributed to that impression with a series of halting performances in broadcast news interviews. But tonight, on the biggest stage of her career and with the most riding on a good performance, Palin came through, scoring clear win over a 36-year Senator.

Judging this debate requires a different analytical metric than the presidential contests. First, the fact the Palin is so new to the national stage gave her an advantage. She did not have to clear the high knowledge hurdle that Biden did. Biden's clearly deeper knowledge worked against him in this debate. He scored no points for knowing more than Palin, precisely because he has been in Washington far longer. Second, the media's treatment of Palin, especially recently, gave her an advantage over Biden by lowering the overall expectations for her. But even without those advantages, Plain turned in the stronger, more energetic, more positive performance. She was knowledgeable on issues from foreign policy to global warming, demonstrating a command of the facts and an unwillingness to go along with the conventional wisdom.

For his part, Biden performed well. His main goals of the evening were to avoid making any serious mistakes, defend Barack Obama's policies, and demonstrate a level of competency that was greater than Palin. He did a good job with the first two. But Palin came right at Biden from the opening question, challenged him on his past unflattering statements about Obama, refused to let Biden's assertions about McCain's record go unanswered, and generally more than held her own with Biden on every issue. She appeared every bit the worthy adversary for Biden and just as able to handle the duties of the office of vice-president.

Just as importantly, Palin was able to connect with the audience. She spoke with a warm and likable demeanor. She looked directly into the camera, and directly at her opponent, and gave a closing statement that was both forceful and positive. Palin is not of Washington, and she doesn't pretend to be. She speaks with an air of the every-woman. She presents herself as someone equally at ease talking about the kids or about the vagaries of oil and gas development. She is a real person. Biden is likely all of those things as well. But like most career politicians, he does not have that quality of genuineness that connects with voters on a personal level. It was in establishing that connection that Palin scored her biggest points of the night.

[beachreader]

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SavhLaney;1787141:
Governor Palin has been slammed for being opposed to gay marriage, but I have not seen the same for Obama.
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All 4 (Obama/McCain/Palin/Biden) have the same views when it comes to gay rights/marriage/civil union.

[PK...]

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beachreader;1787142:

The moderator asked straight out if Obama was for gay marriage...Biden said No....I gave a little gasp at that.
I think that they were trying to avoid a straight out answer but when asked directly Biden said 'No".
McCain and Obama have the same views on gay rights and "civil unions".
Both are against gay "marriage" but for "civil unions".....(as well as Palin and Biden).
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I was surprised that Biden kept making comparisons between Obama and McCain.... I thought the idea was to show their differences, LOL...

And then Biden mis-compared them at that....

;0))

PK

[PK...]

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beachreader;1787144:
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SavhLaney;1787141:
Governor Palin has been slammed for being opposed to gay marriage, but I have not seen the same for Obama.
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All 4 (Obama/McCain/Palin/Biden) have the same views when it comes to gay rights/marriage/civil union.
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But Obama hasn't been slammed..... Only Palin...

;0))

PK

[beachreader]

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PK...;1787146:
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beachreader;1787142:

The moderator asked straight out if Obama was for gay marriage...Biden said No....I gave a little gasp at that.
I think that they were trying to avoid a straight out answer but when asked directly Biden said 'No".
McCain and Obama have the same views on gay rights and "civil unions".
Both are against gay "marriage" but for "civil unions".....(as well as Palin and Biden).
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I was surprised that Biden kept making comparisons between Obama and McCain.... I thought the idea was to show their differences, LOL...

And then Biden mis-compared them at that....

;0))

PK
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I liked how Sarah picked up on and reiterated every time that he did that by saying something along the lines of "we all agree on that".

[beachreader]

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PK...;1787147:
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beachreader;1787144:
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SavhLaney;1787141:
Governor Palin has been slammed for being opposed to gay marriage, but I have not seen the same for Obama.
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All 4 (Obama/McCain/Palin/Biden) have the same views when it comes to gay rights/marriage/civil union.
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But Obama hasn't been slammed..... Only Palin...

;0))

PK
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Hmmmmmmmmm wonder why?

Do you think that Obama groaned as I gasped last night when Biden answered a straight up "No".

[amber]

Obama has never said he was for gay marriage, he said he was for civil union.

I never heard palin or mccain say they were for civil union. All she said was that she would not create legislation that prohibits hospital visitation or contracts being signed. That's all

[beachreader]

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amber;1787150:
Obama has never said he was for gay marriage, he said he was for civil union.

I never heard palin or mccain say they were for civil union. All she said was that she would not create legislation that prohibits hospital visitation or contracts being signed. That's all
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I never realized until last night that Obama did not support gay marriage.

Maybe because a lot of his ads are about him supporting gay rights. He really plays that up where McCain does not so I just never realized until it was completely spelled straight out for me last night that McCain and Obama actually are equal on this issue.

[Monicauf]

I like reading the fact check after the debates and found this interesting:

Some facts adrift in veep debate By CALVIN WOODWARD, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 58 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - Republican Sarah Palin criticized a version of a Barack Obama health care plan that doesn't exist and Democrat Joe Biden clung to a misleading charge about Republicans and big oil when the two clashed in the vice presidential debate Thursday.

ADVERTISEMENT

Some examples of facts cast adrift in the debate:

PALIN: Said of Democratic presidential candidate Obama: "94 times he voted to increase taxes or not support a tax reduction."

THE FACTS: The dubious count includes repetitive votes as well as votes to cut taxes for the middle class while raising them on the rich. An analysis by factcheck.org found that 23 of the votes were for measures that would have produced no tax increase at all, seven were in favor of measures that would have lowered taxes for many, 11 would have increased taxes on only those making more than $1 million a year.

___

BIDEN: Complained about "economic policies of the last eight years" that led to "excessive deregulation."

THE FACTS: Biden voted for 1999 deregulation that liberal groups are blaming for part of the financial crisis today. The law allowed Wall Street investment banks to create the kind of SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM-related securities at the core of the problem now. The law was widely backed by Republicans as well as by Democratic President Clinton, who argues it has stopped the crisis today from being worse.

___

PALIN: Criticized Obama's "plan to mandate health care coverage and have universal government run program" for health care, and added: "I don't think it's going to be real pleasing for Americans to consider health care being taken over by the Feds."

THE FACTS: Wrong on several counts. Obama's plan does not provide for universal coverage, only mandates SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM for children and doesn't turn the system over to the government. Most people would still get private SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM through their work. Obama proposes that the government subsidize the cost of health coverage for millions who have trouble affording it and he'd set up an exchange to negotiate prices and benefits with private insurers — with one option being a government-run plan.

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BIDEN: Warned that Republican presidential candidate John McCain's $5,000 tax credit to help families buy health coverage "will go straight to the SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM company."

THE FACTS: That's not surprising — the money is meant to pay for health SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM. The Obama campaign tried to capitalize on the candidates' health care exchange by issuing an ad Friday contending that the Republicans can't explain "the McCain health tax."

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PALIN: "Two years ago, remember, it was John McCain who pushed so hard with the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac reform measures. He sounded that warning bell."

THE FACTS: Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska led an effort in 2005 to tighten regulation on the SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM underwriters — McCain joined as a co-sponsor a year later. The legislation was never taken up by the full Senate, then under Republican control.

___

BIDEN: Said McCain supports tax breaks for oil companies, and "wants to give them another $4 billion tax cut."

THE FACTS: Biden is repeating a favorite saw of the Obama campaign, and it's misleading. McCain supports a cut in income taxes for all corporations, and doesn't single out any one industry for that benefit.

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PALIN: Said the United States has reduced its troop level in Iraq to a number below where it was when the troop increase began in early 2007.

THE FACTS: Not correct. The Pentagon says there are currently 152,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, about 17,000 more than there were before the 2007 military buildup began.

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BIDEN: "As a matter of fact, John recently wrote an article in a major magazine saying that he wants to do for the health care industry — deregulate it and let the free market move — like he did for the banking industry."

THE FACTS: Biden and Obama have been perpetuating this distortion of what McCain wrote in an article for the American Academy of Actuaries. McCain, laying out his health plan, only referred to deregulation when saying people should be allowed to buy health SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM across state lines. In that context, he wrote: "Opening up the health SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation."

___

PALIN: Said Alaska is "building a nearly $40 billion natural gas pipeline, which is North America's largest and most expensive infrastructure project ever to flow those sources of energy into hungry markets."

THE FACTS: Not quite. Construction is at least six years away. So far the state has only awarded a license to Trans Canada Corp., that comes with $500 million in seed money in exchange for commitments toward a lengthy and costly process to getting a federal certificate. At an August news conference after the state Legislature approved the license, Palin said, "It's not a done deal."

___

PALIN: "Barack Obama even supported increasing taxes as late as last year for those families making only $42,000 a year."

BIDEN: "The charge is absolutely not true. Barack Obama did not vote to raise taxes."

THE FACTS: The vote was on a nonbinding budget resolution that assumed that President Bush's tax cuts would expire, as scheduled, in 2011. If that actually happened, it could mean higher taxes for people making as little as about $42,000. But Obama is proposing tax increases only on the wealthy, and would cut taxes for most others.

___

PALIN: Said a McCain-Palin administration "will support Israel," including "building our embassy ... in Jerusalem."

THE FACTS: Moving the U.S. Embassy from its present location in Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is a perennial promise of presidential candidates courting the Jewish-American vote. In fact, moving the embassy is actually required by U.S. law. But successive administrations of both parties, including George W. Bush's, have made the same pledge only to find that the realities of Middle East peacemaking have forced them to invoke a waiver to delay it. Jerusalem is claimed as a capital by both Israel and the Palestinians and Israel's occupation of east Jerusalem is not internationally recognized. The city's status is one of the key issues of disagreement in peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.

[amber]

yeah but don't the dems always say there for gay rights and then always back track on the gay marriege thing during the debates ?

[Jinh]

Here's more from Factcheck.org ...

FactChecking Biden-Palin Debate
October 3, 2008
The candidates were not 100 percent accurate. To say the least.
Summary
Biden and Palin debated, and both mangled some facts.

Palin mistakenly claimed that troop levels in Iraq had returned to “pre-surge” levels. Levels are gradually coming down but current plans would have levels higher than pre-surge numbers through early next year, at least.
Biden incorrectly said “John McCain voted the exact same way” as Obama on a controversial troop funding bill. The two were actually on opposite sides.


Palin repeated a false claim that Obama once voted in favor of higher taxes on “families” making as little as $42,000 a year. He did not. The budget bill in question called for an increase only on singles making that amount, but a family of four would not have been affected unless they made at least $90,000 a year.
Biden wrongly claimed that McCain “voted the exact same way” as Obama on the budget bill that contained an increase on singles making as little as $42,000 a year. McCain voted against it. Biden was referring to an amendment that didn't address taxes at that income level.
Palin claimed McCain’s health care plan would be “budget neutral,” costing the government nothing. Independent budget experts estimate McCain's plan would cost tens of billions each year, though details are too fuzzy to allow for exact estimates.


Biden wrongly claimed that McCain had said "he wouldn't even sit down" with the government of Spain. Actually, McCain didn't reject a meeting, but simply refused to commit himself one way or the other during an interview.

Palin wrongly claimed that “millions of small businesses” would see tax increases under Obama’s tax proposals. At most, several hundred thousand business owners would see increases.

For full details on these misstatements, and on additional factual disputes and dubious claims, please read on to the Analysis section.

Analysis
Vice presidential candidates Joe Biden and Sarah Palin met for their one and only debate Oct. 2 in St. Louis, Missouri. The event was broadcast nationally. Gwen Ifill of PBS was the debate moderator.

We noted the following:


Palin Trips Up on Troop Levels


Palin got her numbers wrong on troop levels when she said "and with the surge that has worked, we're now down to pre-surge numbers in Iraq."

The surge was announced in January 2007, at which point there were 132,000 troops in Iraq, according to the Brookings Institute Iraq Index. As of September 2008, that number was 146,000. President Bush recently announced that another 8,000 would be coming home by February of next year. But even then, there still would be 6,000 more troops in Iraq than there were when the surge began.


Biden Fudges on Troop Funding


Biden defended Obama's vote against a troop-funding bill, claiming that McCain voted "the exact same way."

Palin: Barack Obama voted against funding troops there after promising that he would not do so…He turned around under political pressure and he voted against funding the troops. ...

Biden: John McCain voted the exact same way. John McCain voted against
funding the troops because of an amendment he voted against had a timeline
in it to draw down American troops. And John said I'm not going to fund
the troops if in fact there's a time line.

As we've pointed out before, the squabble refers to a pair of 2007 votes on war funding. Obama voted for a version of the bill that included language calling for withdrawing troops from Iraq. Biden is simply wrong to say that McCain voted against that bill; he was absent and didn’t vote at all. McCain did oppose the bill, and he urged President Bush to veto it. Bush did. Obama then voted against the same bill without withdrawal language. He had voted yes on at least 10 other war funding bills prior to that single 2007 no vote.


Palin's False Tax Claims


Palin repeated a false claim about Barack Obama's tax proposal:

Palin: Barack Obama even supported increasing taxes as late as last year for those families making only $42,000 a year. That's a lot of middle income average American families to increase taxes on them. I think that is the way to kill jobs and to continue to harm our economy.

Obama did not in fact vote to increase taxes on "families" making as little as $42,000 per year. What Obama actually voted for was a budget resolution that called for returning the 25 percent tax bracket to its pre-Bush tax cut level of 28 percent. That could have affected an individual with no children making as little as $42,000. But a couple would have had to earn $83,000 to be affected and a family of four at least $90,000. The resolution would not have raised taxes on its own, without additional legislation, and, as we've noted before, there is no such tax increase in Obama's tax plan. (The vote took place on March 14 of this year, not last year as Palin said.)

Palin also repeated the exaggeration that Obama voted 94 times to increase taxes. That number includes seven votes that would have lowered taxes for many, while raising them on corporations or affluent individuals; 23 votes that were against tax cuts; and 17 that came on just 7 different bills. She also claimed that Biden and Obama voted for "the largest tax increase in history." Palin is referring here to the Democrats' 2008 budget proposal, which would indeed have resulted in about $217 billion in higher taxes over two years. That's a significant increase. But measured as a percentage of the nation's economic output, or gross domestic product, the yardstick that most economists prefer, the 2008 budget proposal would have been the third-largest since 1968, and it's not even in the top 10 since 1940.


Biden's False Defense


Biden denied that Obama supported increasing taxes for families making $42,000 a year – but then falsely claimed that McCain had cast an identical vote.

Biden: Barack Obama did not vote to raise taxes. The vote she's referring to, John McCain voted the exact same way. It was a budget procedural vote. John McCain voted the same way. It did not raise taxes.
Biden was correct only to the extent that the resolution Obama supported would not by itself have increased taxes; it was a vote on a budget resolution that set revenue and spending targets. But he's wrong to say McCain voted the same way. The Obama campaign attempted to justify Biden's remark by pointing to a different vote, on a Senate amendment, that took place March 13. The amendment passed 99-1, with only Democratic Sen. Russ Feingold dissenting. It would have preserved some of Bush's tax cuts for lower-income people. The vote on the budget resolution in question, however, came in the wee hours of March 14 and was a mostly party-line tally, 51-44, with Obama in favor and McCain not voting.



Palin's Health Care Hooey


Palin claimed that McCain's health care plan would be "budget-neutral," costing the government nothing.

Palin: He's proposing a $5,000 tax credit for families so that they can get out there and they can purchase their own health care coverage. That's a smart thing to do. That's budget neutral. That doesn't cost the government anything ... a $5,000 health care credit through our income tax, that's budget neutral.

The McCain campaign hasn't released an estimate of how much the plan would cost, but independent experts contradict Palin's claim of a cost-free program.

The Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center estimates that McCain's plan, which at its peak would cover 5 million of the uninsured, would increase the deficit by $1.3 trillion over 10 years. Obama's plan, which would cover 34 million of the uninsured, would cost $1.6 trillion over that time period.

The nonpartisan U.S. Budget Watch's fiscal voter guide estimates that McCain's tax credit would increase the deficit by somewhere between $288 billion to $364 billion by the year 2013, and that making employer health benefits taxable would bring in between $201 billion to $274 billion in revenue. That nets out to a shortfall of somewhere between $14 billion to $163 billion – for that year alone.

Palin also said that Obama’s plan would be "universal government run" health care and that health care would be "taken over by the feds." That's not the case at all. As we’ve said before, Obama’s plan would not replace or remove private SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM, or require people to enroll in a public plan. It would increase the offerings of publicly funded health care.


McCain in Spain?


Biden said that McCain had refused to meet with the government of Spain,
but McCain made no such definite statement.

Biden: The last point I'll make, John McCain said as recently as a couple of weeks ago he wouldn't even sit down with the government of Spain, a NATO ally that has troops in Afghanistan with us now. I find that incredible.

In a September 17 interview on Radio Caracol Miami, McCain appeared confused when asked whether he would meet with President Zapatero of Spain. He responded that "I would be willing to meet with those leaders who are our friends and want to work with us in a cooperative fashion," but then started talking about leaders in Latin America. He did not commit to meeting with Zapatero, but it wasn't clear he'd understood the question.

But the McCain campaign denied that their candidate was confused.
According to our colleagues at PolitiFact.com, campaign adviser Randy Scheunemann e-mailed CNN and the Washington Post the next day, saying that McCain's reluctance to commit to a meeting with Zapatero was a policy decision.

Scheunemann, September 2008: The questioner asked several times about Senator McCain's willingness to meet Zapatero — and id'd him in the question so there is no doubt Senator McCain knew exactly to whom the question referred. Senator McCain refused to commit to a White House meeting with President Zapatero in this interview.

That's not a refusal to meet with Zapatero, as Biden said. It's simply a refusal to commit himself one way or the other.


Palin's Small Business Balderdash


Palin repeated a falsehood that the McCain campaign has peddled, off and on, for some time:

Palin: But when you talk about Barack's plan to tax increase affecting only those making $250,000 a year or more, you're forgetting millions of small businesses that are going to fit into that category. So they're going to be the ones paying higher taxes thus resulting in fewer jobs being created and less productivity.

As we reported June 23, it's simply untrue that "millions" of small business owners will pay higher federal income taxes under Obama's proposal. According to an analysis by the independent Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center, several hundred thousand small business owners, at most, would have incomes high enough to be affected by the higher rates on income, capital gains and dividends that Obama proposes. That counts as "small business owners" even those who merely have some sideline income from such endeavors as freelance writing, speaking or running rental properties, and who get the bulk of their income from employment elsewhere.

Defense Disagreements


Biden and Palin got into a tussle about military recommendations in Afghanistan:

Biden: The fact is that our commanding general in Afghanistan said today that a surge – the surge principles used in Iraq will not – well, let me say this again now – our commanding general in Afghanistan said the surge principle in Iraq will not work in Afghanistan, not Joe Biden, our commanding general in Afghanistan. He said we need more troops. We need government-building. We need to spend more money on the infrastructure in Afghanistan.

Palin: Well, first, McClellan did not say definitively the surge principles would not work in Afghanistan. Certainly, accounting for different conditions in that different country and conditions are certainly different. We have NATO allies helping us for one, and even the geographic differences are huge but the counterinsurgency principles could work in Afghanistan. McClellan didn't say anything opposite of that. The counterinsurgency strategy going into Afghanistan, clearing, holding, rebuilding, the civil society and the infrastructure can work in Afghanistan.

Point Biden. To start, Palin got newly appointed Gen. David D. McKiernan's name wrong when she called him McClellan. And, more important, Gen. McKiernan clearly did say that surge principles would not work in Afghanistan. As the Washington Post reported:

Washington Post: "The word I don't use for Afghanistan is 'surge,' " McKiernan stressed, saying that what is required is a "sustained commitment" to a counterinsurgency effort that could last many years and would ultimately require a political, not military, solution.

However, it is worth noting that McKiernan also said that Afghanistan would need an infusion of American troops "as quickly as possible."


Killing Afghan Civilians?


Palin said that Obama had accused American troops of doing nothing but killing civilians, a claim she called "reckless" and "untrue."

Palin: Now, Barack Obama had said that all we're doing in Afghanistan is air-raiding villages and killing civilians. And such a reckless, reckless comment and untrue comment, again, hurts our cause.

Obama did say that troops in Afghanistan were killing civilians. Here’s the whole quote, from a campaign stop in New Hampshire:

Obama (August 2007): We’ve got to get the job done there and that requires us to have enough troops so that we’re not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous problems there.

The Associated Press fact-checked this one, and found that in fact U.S troops were killing more civilians at the time than insurgents: "As of Aug. 1, the AP count shows that while militants killed 231 civilians in attacks in 2007, Western forces killed 286. Another 20 were killed in crossfire that can’t be attributed to one party." Afghan President Hamid Karzai had expressed concern about these civilian killings, a concern President Bush said he shared.

Whether Obama said that this was "all we're doing" is debatable. He said that we need to have enough troops so that we're "not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians," but did not say that troops are doing nothing else.


Out of Context?


Biden claimed a comment he made about "clean coal" was taken out of context:

Biden: My record for 25 years has supported clean coal technology. A comment made in a rope line was taken out of context. I was talking about exporting that technology to China so when they burn their dirty coal, it won't be as dirty, it will be clean.

Was it really taken out of context? Here’s the full exchange, which took place while Biden was shaking hands with voters along a rope line in Ohio.

Woman: Wind and solar are flourishing here in Ohio, why are you supporting clean coal?
Biden: We’re not supporting clean coal. Guess what? China’s building two every week, two dirty coal plants, and it’s polluting the United States. It’s causing people to die.

Obama-Biden campaign spokesman David Wade later said that “Biden’s point is that China is building coal plants with outdated technology every day, and the United States needs to lead by developing clean coal technologies.”

Whatever Biden meant or didn’t mean to say on the rope line, he has supported clean coal in the past. When the McCain camp used this one remark from Biden as the basis for a TV ad saying that Obama-Biden oppose clean coal, we said the claim was false. Obama’s position in favor of clean coal has been clear, and pushing for the technology has been part of his energy policy.


McCain in the Vanguard of SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM Reform?


Palin said that McCain had sounded the alarm on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac two years ago.

Palin: We need to look back, even two years ago, and we need to be appreciative of John McCain's call for reform with Fannie Mae, with Freddie Mac, with the SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM-lenders, too, who were starting to really kind of rear that head of abuse.

Palin is referring to a bill that would have increased oversight on Fannie and Freddie. In our recent article about assigning blame for the crisis, we found that by the time McCain added his name to the bill as a cosponsor, the collapse was well underway. Home prices began falling only two months later. Our colleagues at PolitiFact also questioned this claim.



And There's More...


A few other misleads of note:

Palin said, "We're circulating about $700 billion a year into foreign countries" for imported oil, repeating an outdated figure often used by McCain. At oil prices current as of Sept. 30, imports are running at a rate of about $493 billion per year.


Biden claimed that McCain said in a magazine article that he wanted to deregulate the health care industry as the banking industry had been. That’s taking McCain’s words out of context. As we’ve said before, he was talking specifically about his proposal to allow the sale of health SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM across state lines.


Biden said five times that McCain's tax plan would give oil companies a "$4 billion tax cut." As we’ve noted previously, McCain’s plan would cut the corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 25 percent — for ALL corporations, not just oil companies. Biden uses a Democratic think tank's estimate for what the rate change is worth to the five largest U.S. oil companies.


Palin threw out an old canard when she criticized Obama for voting for the 2005 energy bill and said, “that’s what gave those oil companies those big tax breaks.” It’s a false attack Sen. Hillary Clinton used against Obama in the primary, and McCain himself has hurled. It’s true that the bill gave some tax breaks to oil companies, but it also took away others. And according to the Congressional Research Service, the bill created a slight net increase in taxes for the oil industry.


Biden said that Iraq had an "$80 billion surplus." The country was once projected to have as much as a $79 billion surplus, but no more. The Iraqis have $29 billion in the bank, and could have $47 billion to $59 billion by the end of the year, as we noted when Obama used the incorrect figure. A $21 billion supplemental spending bill, passed by the Iraqi legislature in August, knocked down the old projection.


Biden said four times that McCain had voted 20 times against funding alternative energy. However, in analyzing the Obama campaign's list of votes after the first presidential debate, we found the number was actually 11. In the other instances the Obama-Biden campaign cites, McCain voted not against alternative energy but against mandatory use of alternative energy, or he voted in favor of allowing exemptions from these mandates.

-by Brooks Jackson, Viveca Novak, Lori Robertson, Joe Miller, Jessica Henig and Justin Bank

Correction Oct. 3: In the summary of this story we originally referred to the "president" of Spain. Biden actually used the word "government" and we have corrected the reference.

[Cindyloo]

I enjoyed the debate and thought Palin did wonderful!

You know though? I like Biden. I guess he's exaggerated in the past and lied about a few things, but I still like him and thought he did a great job too.

I will still vote for McCain/Palin though.

I also wondered if Biden had botox, then I thought...well maybe it's our TV or something...lol

Oh and definitely thought that Gwen Ihill did a great job moderating. She was fair, at least that's what *I* thought...(:

[Scoops]

Jinh....good fact checking find...so much stuff is misstated in debates...I enjoy when everything from both sides is laid out fairly.

I like yours too Monica....being lazy and reading from latest backwards.

[Scoops]

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PK...;1787146:
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beachreader;1787142:

The moderator asked straight out if Obama was for gay marriage...Biden said No....I gave a little gasp at that.
I think that they were trying to avoid a straight out answer but when asked directly Biden said 'No".
McCain and Obama have the same views on gay rights and "civil unions".
Both are against gay "marriage" but for "civil unions".....(as well as Palin and Biden).
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I was surprised that Biden kept making comparisons between Obama and McCain.... I thought the idea was to show their differences, LOL...

And then Biden mis-compared them at that....

;0))

PK
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that's a good point!!! He kept pointing out how they voted alike on some issues.

[Scoops]

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PK...;1787143:
I couldn't find any snarking on Biden's look online, but I probably didn't use the right search criteria, LOL... I DID, however, find this critique, that seems fairly accurate (translate = agrees with my personal opinion, LOL)

And since it was through AOL News, I voted in all the polls while there... That was fun... According to those responding, Palin won the debate, but Biden would be the better VP (by one percentage point...). Most found Biden's "moment" touching and likewise Palin's winking "annoying" (LOL, been there done that, here).... Only majorities in two states think Palin should be removed from the ticket before the election...

If you want to see how your state voted in the last poll, you can find it here.

SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMnews.aol.com/political-machine/2008/10/02/hot-seat-will-palin-drop-out/

The other polls are on the front page of AOL News, if I remember correctly...

One other tidbit gleaned from my late night TV viewing, is that Palin scored higher with men than women on those clickey thingies... (Can you say Meow???)

;0))

PK

Palin Performs
By Mark Impomeni
Oct 3rd 2008 12:00AM

Republican Vice-Presidential nominee, Gov. Sarah Palin, scored an upset victory over Democrat Sen. Joe Biden in the Vice-Presidential debate held tonight at Washington University in St. Louis, MO. Palin has been derided in the media and by Democrats almost since the moment she was selected by Sen. John McCain as an unprepared novice. Palin herself has contributed to that impression with a series of halting performances in broadcast news interviews. But tonight, on the biggest stage of her career and with the most riding on a good performance, Palin came through, scoring clear win over a 36-year Senator.

Judging this debate requires a different analytical metric than the presidential contests. First, the fact the Palin is so new to the national stage gave her an advantage. She did not have to clear the high knowledge hurdle that Biden did. Biden's clearly deeper knowledge worked against him in this debate. He scored no points for knowing more than Palin, precisely because he has been in Washington far longer. Second, the media's treatment of Palin, especially recently, gave her an advantage over Biden by lowering the overall expectations for her. But even without those advantages, Plain turned in the stronger, more energetic, more positive performance. She was knowledgeable on issues from foreign policy to global warming, demonstrating a command of the facts and an unwillingness to go along with the conventional wisdom.

For his part, Biden performed well. His main goals of the evening were to avoid making any serious mistakes, defend Barack Obama's policies, and demonstrate a level of competency that was greater than Palin. He did a good job with the first two. But Palin came right at Biden from the opening question, challenged him on his past unflattering statements about Obama, refused to let Biden's assertions about McCain's record go unanswered, and generally more than held her own with Biden on every issue. She appeared every bit the worthy adversary for Biden and just as able to handle the duties of the office of vice-president.

Just as importantly, Palin was able to connect with the audience. She spoke with a warm and likable demeanor. She looked directly into the camera, and directly at her opponent, and gave a closing statement that was both forceful and positive. Palin is not of Washington, and she doesn't pretend to be. She speaks with an air of the every-woman. She presents herself as someone equally at ease talking about the kids or about the vagaries of oil and gas development. She is a real person. Biden is likely all of those things as well. But like most career politicians, he does not have that quality of genuineness that connects with voters on a personal level. It was in establishing that connection that Palin scored her biggest points of the night.
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wow...PK...did you read the posts on that should palin drop out poll? People are royally ticked off that it was even put on there.

I otoh enjoyed reading the percentages by state on the interactive map and consider the poll more liberal hooey? should Biden drop out because he is a liar and a cheat and pretend cried to get sympathy votes? should Obama drop out because he is inexperienced? stupid questions but fun little map.

[Monicauf]

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Scoops;1787210:
Jinh....good fact checking find...so much stuff is misstated in debates...I enjoy when everything from both sides is laid out fairly.

I like yours too Monica....being lazy and reading from latest backwards.
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I agree, I enjoy it too when you can read the facts from both sides and that is is laid out fairly and you're welcome, nothing wrong with being lazy!

[Jinh]

I see no reason what so ever for her to drop out...why should she? The way I see it, she is who she is - it is what it is - let the voters decide.

It's unfortunate, (and I think Monica has brought this up before), that there are so many really experienced Republican women out there from which to choose - women who have worked hard their whole lives (ala Hillary)...I find it a little odd, his choice of Palin...but, fortunately, it's not my problem...

[Scoops]

The who won the debate poll is even on US Magazine website (not that they are a hotbed of intellectuals) but they have picked up many votes. (7046 Palin 7050 Biden)


I am amazed that the aol polls have had over 200,000 votes for each candidate.

Now that is a true sampling.


SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMwww.usmagazine.com/news/vote-who-won-last-nights-debate

[Jinh]

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Monicauf;1787229:
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Scoops;1787210:
Jinh....good fact checking find...so much stuff is misstated in debates...I enjoy when everything from both sides is laid out fairly.

I like yours too Monica....being lazy and reading from latest backwards.
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I agree, I enjoy it too when you can read the facts from both sides and that is is laid out fairly and you're welcome, nothing wrong with being lazy!
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Hi Monica and Scoops...

Monica, I really enjoy reading your take on things...you always see it through truly independent eyes...

Anyway, she did exactly what I expected...no more, maybe a little less...as some have said, she did skirt quite a few issues. She used lots and lots of coached talking points - but nothing deep, spontaneous or showing a lot of knowledge...

At least she toned down her voice...Oh, and people in Montana do not talk like that, either...lol

[Susan]

OK, I'm leaning towards a vocal affectation....since Scoops has a relative in Maine who talks like that, yet Monica also knows Maine and denies it's a "Maine thing"....I'm closest to Sarah geographically and I'm stumped, plus I lived in Idaho and they sound identical to Washington.....Jinh nixes the Montana connection.....Our resident Canadians listened and are baffled.....I'm guessing she sounds nothing like SavhLaney y'all (hehe).....

Sarah's her own gal, darn right, you betcha! <wink> (Has Tina Fey commented at all on the voice? She sure nailed it QUICK!...especially considering she's not a speSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMt in imitations, that I know of)

[Susan]

Thanks for the fact checking, ladies! Now we can argue over who fudged the least!

Geez, and they said it was gaffe-free....what on earth would constitute a gaffe, then? Knocking over the podium and going spread eagle into Gwen's lap?

[Scoops]

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Susan;1787248:
OK, I'm leaning towards a vocal affectation....since Scoops has a relative in Maine who talks like that, yet Monica also knows Maine and denies it's a "Maine thing"....I'm closest to Sarah geographically and I'm stumped, plus I lived in Idaho and they sound identical to Washington.....Jinh nixes the Montana connection.....Our resident Canadians listened and are baffled.....I'm guessing she sounds nothing like SavhLaney y'all (hehe).....

Sarah's her own gal, darn right, you betcha! <wink> (Has Tina Fey commented at all on the voice? She sure nailed it QUICK!...especially considering she's not a speSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMt in imitations, that I know of)
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well, this may help...my friends in Maine don't have her accent...they use the same folksy terms. I love when my friends come out with one just in general conversation. They always make me smile.

[Jinh]

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Susan;1787253:
Thanks for the fact checking, ladies! Now we can argue over who fudged the least!

Geez, and they said it was gaffe-free....what on earth would constitute a gaffe, then? Knocking over the podium and going spread eagle into Gwen's lap?
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LOLOL!!! Susan - great skit for SNL! LOL

[beachreader]

I am going to have to listen to her speak again because I do not really remember noticing an accent last night.

[Susan]

beachreader, where are you from? you may have just solved the mystery!

[beachreader]

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Susan;1787273:
beachreader, where are you from? you may have just solved the mystery!
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I was thinking uh oh why am I not remembering hearing an accent. I pick up on accents really quick.

I am a PA girl so I am pretty sure that the mystery is still ...a mystery. lol

[Monicauf]

Thanks Jinh!! I enjoy reading your posts and everyone else's too on this subject, it can be sensitive and overall I think everyone here has made great contributions.


Is Palin from Alaska? Is that where she was born and raised? To me I hear an accent, but I know when I hear someone from Maine, I hear an accent, but I also immediately think of family. I don't think I have an accent, I think I lost mine a long time ago, but others would disagree with me. She does not sound like family, but maybe if she got rid of those cutsie comments we could tell better with her accent or lack of....

[beachreader]

I just listened to the 1st 6 or so minutes of last nights debates and the only accent that I am picking up on are works like "ago" and "Known"...she pronounces the "o" a little differently...and also the word energy.....says pronounces it "in"ergy.....

Is that what you are all picking up on?

I do notice that her voice is a little different.

I actually thought that she sounded like a newscaster with her opening statement last night and thought so again today.

[beachreader]

Gov Palin was born in Idaho

From Wikipedia: Palin was born in Sandpoint, Idaho, the third of four children of Sarah Heath (née Sheeran), a school secretary, and Charles R. Heath, a science teacher and track coach.[6] Her father is descended from English and German settlers.[7] The family moved to Alaska when she was an infant.

[PK...]

I tried to listen to her brother and sister speak last night, but they didn't say enough to make any determination...

Sam and I agree, though, LOL.... To us, she sounds like "Fargo".... Not on every word, but on those that sound odd...

;0))

PK

[Susan]

Monica, she was born in Idaho but only lived there a few months. She was raised in Wasilla, Alaska and still has a home there, though the capital is Juneau so she must live there, too.

[Monicauf]

I bet her accent is a combination of being born in Idaho and living in Alaska- her parents are from Idaho correct? I could be wrong, but I think our accent or part of it is from our surroundings and as an infant she was exposed to the accent of Idaho and took on whatever accent Alaksa has due to her new surroundings and the people that live there. I don't always sound like a northernor- I think rarely, but I have been told that there are some words that I say, some expressions that one can tell or have an idea where I am from and I bet it is the same for Palin.

Thanks Susan and beachreader

[PK...]

There's a chance her parents were actually from MN or ND, too...

;0))

PK

[Jinh]

As Susan said, she lived in Idaho (and I've been there dozens of times) and nobody sounds like that. I have relatives up in Alaska and they don't sound like her either...I just don't know where the heck it comes from!lol

[SavhLaney]

I think she has a great accent.

[sam king cat]

& the way she says Kenada. Is that the way they say it in Fargo too ?


Overall, I enjoyed it the debate and found it refreshing that they were looking at each other and not bashing one another.
Different strategy from the last debate. I preferred this one.

[Jinh]

She mispronounced nuclear (she said nucUlar) over eight times.

After the hey-day about Bush mispronouncing the word over all these years, it just demonstrates how out-of-touch she is...(JMO).

[PK...]

Oh, poo....

LOL...

;0))

PK

[Jinh]

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PK...;1787327:
Oh, poo....

LOL...

;0))

PK
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LOL ...

[PK...]

You know when pronouncing "that word", I find myself saying it both ways... So I just looked it up... I found this surprising, but most logical...

<<<USAGE NOTE The pronunciation (nū'kyə-lər), which is generally considered incorrect, is an example of how a familiar phonological pattern can influence an unfamiliar one. The usual pronunciation of the final two syllables of this word is (-klē-ər), but this sequence of sounds is rare in English. Much more common is the similar sequence (-kyə-lər), which occurs in words like particular, circular, spectacular, and in many scientific words like molecular, ocular, and vascular.>>>

Maybe they should just change the spelling..... <grin>

;0))

PK

[beachreader]

Both Biden and Palin pronounced nuclear the same way.

SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMwww.youtube.com/watch?v=wiv1A_p9u6U

[Susan]

That's false, beachreader. Biden pronounced it correctly. You may be thinking of George W. Bush?

The Republican campaign is sensitive to the fact that she mispronounces it, they even spell it phonetically - new-clear - on her teleprompter copy for her speeches.

SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMwww.youtube.com/watch?v=gUttfiYl4UQ

They probably worked with her on it before the debate but maybe her nerves got the best of her and her pronunciation guide went out the window...

[beachreader]

Thanks for posting that Susan, in the debate clip that I posted I honestly was not hearing the "U". I do hear a little something something now at times but it honestly was so slight to me that it was sounding like she and Biden were pronouncing it the same.
I didn't pick up on it and still barely do.

nu-clee-er---that is how it is sounding to me with both. lol

[beachreader]

omg---rotfl-----it is like the magic eye pics where you have to keep staring at it and a pic will appear...i can hardly ever see the pic

Well, I just went and watched the debate clip and she says nu-que-ler......ROTFL...You were right! Sorry about that.
I honestly was not hearing it.

[sam king cat]

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beachreader;1787351:
omg---rotfl-----it is like the magic eye pics where you have to keep staring at it and a pic will appear...i can hardly ever see the pic

Well, I just went and watched the debate clip and she says nu-que-ler......ROTFL...You were right! Sorry about that.
I honestly was not hearing it.
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The secret to those pics = more winky winks !

;)

[beachreader]

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sam king cat;1787352:
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beachreader;1787351:
omg---rotfl-----it is like the magic eye pics where you have to keep staring at it and a pic will appear...i can hardly ever see the pic

Well, I just went and watched the debate clip and she says nu-que-ler......ROTFL...You were right! Sorry about that.
I honestly was not hearing it.
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The secret to those pics = more winky winks !

;)
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lol =)

[Skeeter]

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Scoops;1787106:
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PK...;1787101:
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Runnin Thru;1787091:
<<<How did you like the big exasperated sigh he gave right in the middle of one of her responses?>>>

I heard it and I did lol. I was thinking more of a Gore moment. lol


I also had the 'wth' moment when he went into the single father story and brought Palin into it....like she somehow demeaned him in some way. I thought I missed something....but no. I guess he knew he had to get those comments in somewhere and time was running out. lol
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And the catch in his voice, and taking a "moment".... I'm sorry he's had heartache, but considering his penchant for "exaggeration", I found it very hard to take that seriously...

;0))

PK
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I didn't want to be the one to go there...since I have been blabbing away...but since you girls did.....wow...to me that was the strangest thing about the whole debate. I believe the man is passionate about his family and I know he loves them ...but to rush that in like v said....when nobody brought it up....bizarre.....and then to have a "moment"....tear up for 2 seconds, and then pop right back into debate speak was too slick for my taste.

I'd rather see Bill Clinton bite his lower lip if I want to see a political drama show....at least he's more fun to watch.
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I'm glad you guys commented, too. When he first walked out, I wasn't sure he could see anything through the slits in his eyes! They seemed to open slowly during the debate.......he looked horrible -- especially next to Palin, who looked lovely. I loved her suit!

:)

Skeeter

[SavhLaney]

Didn't she look beautiful? I loved the red pumps with the black suit. Her hair and make-up were flawless.

I want to know who designed the suit and the shoes.

[DKLA]

The french braid thingy looked good - she does have nice hair.

:)

[Skeeter]

I love her "folksy" talk -- I have friends who speak the same way -- down to earth.

My friends certainly don't speak like Joe Biden.....

And how many times do you REALLY think good ole Joe has been in Home Depot the last year? Other than to go there so he said he was there? Do we really think he buys lumber there, or redoes his own bathroom?

I think not. LOL

:)

Skeeter

[SavhLaney]

You don't think ole Joe is a fixer upper at home? lol

[Skeeter]

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SavhLaney;1787375:
Didn't she look beautiful? I loved the red pumps with the black suit. Her hair and make-up were flawless.

I want to know who designed the suit and the shoes.
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Ha! I didn't even notice her red heels!

I would love to know who designs her clothes. They are classic and beautiful. Imagine what she will wear to the inaugural ball? :D

Did anyone catch her ask him when they walked out if it was ok that she called him Joe? I thought that was so appropriate. Whatever he agreed to, she would do.

:)

Skeeter

[Skeeter]

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SavhLaney;1787380:
You don't think ole Joe is a fixer upper at home? lol
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Uh, no....

other than to fix his "uppers" :)

Skeeter

[sam king cat]

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SavhLaney;1787375:
Didn't she look beautiful? I loved the red pumps with the black suit. Her hair and make-up were flawless.

I want to know who designed the suit and the shoes.
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The Naughty Monkey peep toe ox blood red pumps are $89.95


If you lO.Oked closely, there were a half size too big.


Some think they are Sergio Rossi shoes.

Last season.

[SavhLaney]

By asking permission to call him Joe, she quickly set the tone for the debate.

Plus, with Joe, you just get all kinds of good sayings you can use.

[SavhLaney]

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sam king cat;1787385:

The Naughty Monkey peep toe ox blood red pumps are $89.95


If you lO.Oked closely, there were a half size too big.


Some think they are Sergio Rossi shoes.

Last season.
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I always wear my shoes a half size up. They are more comfortable, especially when you have to be on your feet like that in heels.

[beachreader]

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SavhLaney;1787375:
Didn't she look beautiful? I loved the red pumps with the black suit. Her hair and make-up were flawless.

I want to know who designed the suit and the shoes.
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Here are her shoes:

SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMlatimesblogs.latimes.com/alltherage/2008/10/sarah-palins-de.html

[Danielle]

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sam king cat;1787385:
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SavhLaney;1787375:
Didn't she look beautiful? I loved the red pumps with the black suit. Her hair and make-up were flawless.

I want to know who designed the suit and the shoes.
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=
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The Naughty Monkey peep toe ox blood red pumps are $89.95


If you lO.Oked closely, there were a half size too big.


Some think they are Sergio Rossi shoes.

Last season.
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Sammi Isn't it wonderful that we got those fancy American television shows to watch? maybe one day we to can have fancy shoes lol

Y'all would look great in them :)

[sam king cat]

Yer darn tootin'

wink
winky
;)

[Danielle]

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sam king cat;1787396:
Yer darn tootin'

wink
winky
;)
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Next we all be getting paved highways and houses with walls!!!

[sam king cat]

My wishlist includes a moosehead for my wall.

[Scoops]

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beachreader;1787394:
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SavhLaney;1787375:
Didn't she look beautiful? I loved the red pumps with the black suit. Her hair and make-up were flawless.

I want to know who designed the suit and the shoes.
www.tvtalkshows.com/board/showpost.php?p=
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Here are her shoes:

SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMlatimesblogs.latimes.com/alltherage/2008/10/sarah-palins-de.html
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Commentary: Palin's subtle attire speaks volumes

By ROBIN GIVHAN Washington Post
Oct. 1, 2008, 5:21PM


Republican vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin's style is exceptionally ordinary. Nothing about it connotes authority. No detail announces that she is in charge. And that's what makes it so powerful.

The rimless glasses that dominate her face are as banal as modern spectacles come. The entire goal of their design is to have them go unnoticed. They are not meant to frame her features as much as they are crafted to avoid detracting from her big brown eyes.

Her clothes are unpretentious, but they are also unremarkable. They have nothing to do with fashion. It's fashion show season now, with designers unveiling their spring 2009 collections in New York, Milan and Paris. So far, none of them have suggested that the next new thing for the power-wielding woman is a straight black skirt with a boxy, oyster-colored blazer, which is what Palin wore when she accepted the vice-presidential nomination in St. Paul, Minn.

In the narrow confines of political style, the accepted rule is to dress in a manner that implies empathy for one's constituency — so don't wear anything too expensive — but also conveys authority. Palin has embraced the former and utterly ignored the latter. Nothing about her style jibes with the image of power. She does not dress like a boss lady, an Iron Lady or the devil who wore Prada.

Her clothes don't have the aura of sophistication like that of Michelle Obama's sheaths and pearls. They do not have a patina of glamour like Cindy McCain's heiress wardrobe. And they do not announce themselves with the confidence, assertiveness and listen-to-me-ness of Sen. Hillary Clinton's bold pantsuits. Palin's clothes are common. Everyone knows someone who dresses like her, which is partly why so many folks seem to think that they know her.

Palin likes to wear a super-size Old Glory brooch that shouts with as much patriotic bravado as one of those monster flags that wave from a car dealership. Her flag was on display during a campaign stop in Grand Rapids, Mich. And for the record, it has no kin among the statement jewelry currently being championed on the runway.

The ruby slippers she wore on the campaign trail, the ones she paired with the black jacket and skirt that pulled just so across her hips, churn up images of another small-town girl who'd suddenly landed in Oz. A peep-toe pump is coy — coquettish even. But not an emblem of gravitas.

Despite what every optometrist with a publicity agent has to say, there is nothing remotely striking about her eyeglasses. It's only notable in an age of contact lenses and Lasik surgery that anyone in the public spotlight regularly wears them at all — except, perhaps, when they're trying to make a point, such as when television interviewers keep a pair of reading glasses perched on the tip of their nose in a way that makes them look like professors skeptical of a student's ability to withstand their Socratic interrogation.

Palin is the girl next door. And yes, much about her attire emphasizes youthfulness, most distinctly her hair.

The hair, which has been highlighted, teased and scrunched, is a standard-issue, mommy-is-in-a-rush style. Since motherhood has been laid out by her campaign like one of the pillars of national service, the mop-top hairdo is practically a battle scar.

Executive women tend to avoid wearing their hair in ponytails or looking like they have it tacked to the top of their head with a chip clip. Like a good female news anchor, they get themselves a haircut that falls no further than the shoulders, is feminine and easy to maintain. They do not want to be wind-blown and tousled when they walk into a boardroom. Hair shouldn't be a distraction.

Palin doesn't have Maria Menounos's Pantene hair. But it is chestnut brown and long and is the antithesis of what most women do with it as they come into their own.

Palin has been referred to as America's hottest governor by sources as varied as Alaska Magazine and button-wearing Republican conventioneers. But Palin's power isn't in her physical looks as much as in the packaging.

Palin seems to dress for pretty rather than powerful. She is willing to be sexual, with the occasional fitted jacket and high heels. She wears dangly earrings.

She talks tough. She doesn't blink. She speaks of "guys and gals." What is a gal


? One thinks of a waitress in a bar who knows that if she pretends she doesn't notice when a guy's ogling her legs and gives as good as she gets when it comes to off-color jokes, life will go along more smoothly. She's not one of the guys, but she doesn't confront them with either a lawyer or rhetoric from a women's studies seminar.

Palin's style serves as evidence that a woman can step onto the national political stage without having to manipulate her wardrobe into some torturous costume calibrated to make her look authoritative but not threatening, feminine but not sexy. Palin proves that a woman can wear red patent-leather shoes and still take questions on foreign policy and the economy.

[sam king cat]

She didn't forget the french manicure on her toe nails.

QVC Dude will be happy :)

[Scoops]

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sam king cat;1787402:
She didn't forget the french manicure on her toe nails.

QVC Dude will be happy :)
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LOL!!!

[PK...]

Yikes....

Give a girl a Pulitzer, and she gets so........

Well, you know.................

Like that!

LOL...

;0))

PK

[Cindyloo]

I thought Sarah looked very pretty. Loved her shoes! She is a strikenly lovely woman. She has beautiful hair, eyes, teeth.

And the smartness to go with it..(:

[SavhLaney]

Yes Cindy, she is the total package IMO.

[PK...]

Hey Sam....

We are apparently smarter than the average bear....

The following is a quip from Leno....

"Last night's vice presidential debate between Joe Biden and Sarah Palin drew much higher ratings than the presidential debate. Biden attracted viewers who enjoyed his previous debate appearances, and Palin attracted viewers who enjoyed the movie `Fargo.'"

Most of the latenighters are a bit frustrated at the lack of material, LOL....

;0))

PK

[beachreader]

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DKLA;1787109:

Bottom line though, regardless what you think of the debate -- of who scored big with what and how often -- one thing is absolutely certain after tonight: there's no mistaking the choice the American voters are being given this election.

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I do agree with his bottom line.....

You can either vote for inexperience in the drivers seat or the passenger....you decide........

The vice presidential debate reminded me of the presidential......even down to the better red tie and red shoes...... lol ;)

People thought that Bidens experience outshone Palins ... I thought that McCains outshone Obamas.

[Jinh]

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beachreader;1787490:
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DKLA;1787109:

Bottom line though, regardless what you think of the debate -- of who scored big with what and how often -- one thing is absolutely certain after tonight: there's no mistaking the choice the American voters are being given this election.

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I do agree with his bottom line.....

You can either vote for inexperience in the drivers seat or the passenger....you decide........

The vice presidential debate reminded me of the presidential......even down to the better red tie and red shoes...... lol ;)

People thought that Bidens experience outshone Palins ... I thought that McCains outshone Obamas.
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A pundit today, talking about polls, said that independent voters are essentially weighing "temperament vs. experience"...

[Mia]

I like that her stylists are keeping her style conservative = businesslike. The splash of color on her feet = feminine. It's a very nice combination.

From the New York Post:

HOCKEY mom Sarah Palin not only wore lipstick to the Republican National Convention, the vice-presidential candidate wore a shantung silk Valentino jacket worth $2,500.

PHOTOS: A Look at Palin's Style

Insiders tell Page Six Palin has a secretive circle of stylists who dress her for events. For her big speech in St. Paul, where she accepted the GOP's vice-presidential nod, this fashion-conscious team encouraged the Alaska governor to splurge on a $2,500 jacket from Saks Fifth Avenue designed by Valentino Garavani.

Palin, shunning the pantsuits favored by Hillary Clinton, wore the top during her first big speech, where she told McCain's delegates: "I was just your average hockey mom, and signed up for the PTA because I wanted to make my kids' public education better."

But she's springing for designer labels. One source familiar with Palin's primping posse told us, "They do not want the American public to know that Palin is using stylists or that she is paying for expensive clothes this early on in the campaign."

We spoke to someone on Palin's styling team, who told us, "I did a little bit of personal styling, but I can't discuss anything I've done with Sarah Palin. I'm not sure which designs she wore . . . anything related to working with her is confidential."

Presidential nominee John McCain's wife, Cindy, recently took some heat after Vanity Fair itemized the cost of her wardrobe during her RNC speech with Laura Bush to a whopping $300,000 worth of designer wear and diamonds.

A representative for Valentino confirmed Palin wore one of his designs during her convention speech, but said she did not buy it from a Valentino store. Palin's reps had no comment.

[Skeeter]

Oooh, I love that article, Scoops. So true. I do love her style!

I'll have to look for a pic of those shoes. I can't believe I missed them! I"m a shoes girl!!!

:)

Skeeter

[Portia....]

I love her style, too. She is not copying anyone and she always looks good without looking like it took all day. Very natural. Very real. What a perfect package she is -- looks AND brains.